Wonposet,It's kind of hard seeing the good and bad that we do butin my case,after almost being killed 15 times,I figure someone is watching out for me. As with all of us we have touched or changed so manys lives that you wonder if we are a part of some bigger plan. I know I have so many that are around cause of me. In my first year of practice I lost count after 180 that had a cancer or severe CAD.
You are around cause Sermo gave you a way to keep going and saving those kids who would not be without you. I and my Mom both Thank-You for allowing to help.

This is an excellent discussion question.

i don't know.

I don't think I really believe in it, yet I want to. i want to believe that my parents are still here with me and those that I have lost are still "aware."

I speak with people who have interesting experiences, spiritually. But I have personally not had one.

Wait a minute: I just remembered something; About 10 years ago, our daughter was having a difficult time over something. i do not remember what it was.

I was in my bed and I prayed that God would take her burdens off her shoulders. A moment later, she walked through hall ( my door was open, so I saw and heard it) and she mumbled to herself: "I'm just going to live it in God's hands."
I was blown away. And forgot all about it.

So, maybe..... I hope.....maybe

And then another one : A few y ears ago, I examined a woman who had homes in Miami and New York. I felt a lump in her breast and wanted immediate mammogram and sonogram, but she was leaving for new York in a couple of days and said she would take care of it there as soon as she arrived.

She saw her doctor who did not feel anything, but she did the mammogram anyway. Radiologist found small tumor and it was malignant and he said there was no way I could have felt it. REferring back to my notes, tumor was felt by me in the area that the mammogram showed it.

Very Interesting question, Wonposet..Wonder why you ask this now..Are you OK?

For me this is an easy question! If you are referring to eternal human life, NO!
I subscribe to the view that human beings are actors in an illusion called life. We are transient witnesses to a never ending drama. We are on the stage or on the sidelines for a very limited time with no large purpose. It is a happenstance. I do not believe that the world exists for the enjoyment of "humans" either. . We often think of eternity , power, immortality of soul and other indecipherable stuff..Stepping back it is all relative. We are no more important than an intestinal parasite, sulfur eating bacteria in crypts of a volcano, a cockroach or an ant. Our sperms are no more important than the much hated ragweed pollen.
We ( All living forms) have our comfort zones, our wants and needs as do these "lesser" animals. To some humans, perhaps these concepts became imponderable and they created "God"..a kind of punch bag for all their "sins"...
So we essentially have to do what makes us comfortable and if possible, what makes other creatures in the world comfortable, but with no expectation of reward. . We cannot wait for the end or a new beginning..because there is no such thing in the infinite drama on this stage called universe.

I looked at Sermo Doc 2's post and I had one of those episodes where I was being operated on for an abcess that went all the way across my back and to thae anterior of both hips. It was supposed to be a hour but 5 later it was still going. I remember the light and being at peace. I heard my wife asking the nurse about my BP and she said it was 70 over 40. My wife said that's a little low isn't it? The nurse said,Yeah but it's better than it was! I turned around and told my heart to start beating.
Aside rom knowing when my grandfather was going to dye I do not remember anything else.

i don't think one needs to be pious to live a righteous or ethical life.

eternity/consciousness--sounds like something i kicked around late at night in the college dorm.
what happens to your consiousness when you die? could it be like a sleep/dream where you never wake up?
most of the time i take the Willie Sutton approach and go where the money is--when you die, its over. if you have progeny, you get to live longer thru them.

We tend to remember those times we pray, hope, wish for something but not all the times we do and nothing happens.

Perhaps it has something to do if you believe man is unique and special and not just further along in evolution than other species. Even religions have differing beliefs.

Interesting, Sermo Doc 5, quite true.

I remember having cataract surgery after the chemo (yucked up my eyes, but fine now)

As i was wheeled in the OR, my husband said that I was "out for several minutes." I remember nothing. I just thought I had been talking and kept right on talking. I can't believe that I was unconscious. Evidently my heart rate (which is quite low, due to aerobic exercise and a small amount of beta blocker) had dropped and I was unconscious for a couple of minutes.

but there was just nothing.......

I hear people speak about seeing a loved one briefly and feeling their presence.

I miss my wonderful parents every day and am grievously and abjectly sorrowful that I did not tell them how wonderful they were when they were alive. But I do not "see" them.

I want desperately to believe in God, but there are times that I wonder if there is a god where did he/she come from?

Zeits, at the moment, that's how I feel, too.

Is this coincidence or what. Just opened the door and saw two ladies giving me bible and asking if my wife had taken time to read the literature they had left 15 days ago!..Some of the fun things people do in the deep south on Saturday mornings!

I think Righteous thoughts and conduct is important for sanity and painless death. ( not to be confused with worship, counting beads or saying inane prayers)..

Wonder if Tiger Woods were on Sermo, he would have played so hard (!)...We all could have guided him ...

On the one hand I'm not sure it should matter to our life on earth whether or not there is an afterlife. We have our life to live now, right here, just as we are doing right now with each other on Sermo, or in the next minute with whomever we are with right then, or alone with ourselves. It can be a good life this minute, and minute by minute thereafter, or we can live in the past or the future or waste it in many other ways. Much of our present contentment (peacefulness or happiness) depends on our attitude.

Hooray if there is an afterlife! but if not, then a contented life is worth living for its own sake.

Isn't God defined in such a way that we can never know?

Family prays that a patient gets better and if the patient does, "praise to God." If the patient dies, then "it is God's will."

wonposet, why do you post this? Does it matter what anyone believes? Sermo Doc 5 has it right.

Unquestioning faith in God, religion, especially leaders( all kinds, politicians,clergy,Clerics, Mullahs, priests, Hospital administrators, Medical thought leaders) is dangerous. Looking through the history, nothing good has come out of blindly practicing any religion..Strife goes hand in hand with religion. People confuse "godliness" with "faith" ( common southern phrase "he is a good Christian" ). I wish there was more focus on conduct than on God...I'm sure this is an unpopular view.

Still don't understand Wonposet's angst..Why this question now?

Our entire existence may be only a dream. We have no way to decipher if there is an objective reality. Prospero in the Tempest implies that when we die, we awake from the dream of life into true reality—or at least into a truer dream:

"Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits, and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd tow'rs, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on; and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep"

Good on you, William Shakespeare. His reference to the 'Globe' is to to the Globe theater which is being depicted as a play, within a play, within a play, ...............

Great question.

If I approach it from a purely logical existential or humanistic perspective, then certainly not.

However, I can't escape the impossibility of any life existing outside of God. Even a single organ such as the liver or eye, much less a single cell, is too complex with too many processes to exist without being put together by a supreme intellegent being.

And it's not just simple life, but intellegent and intellectually progressive life.

The consider the privileged status our planet holds that establishes the perfect conditions for life. Any change in orbit, distance form sun, axis, etc, and it all goes away. Same applies for the location of our solar system, and galaxy.

If you consider all this, you've got to ask the question "Why?".

Anyway, take this to it's logical end. So, yes, I believe in eternal life.

"The consider the privileged status our planet holds that establishes the perfect conditions for life. Any change in orbit, distance form sun, axis, etc, and it all goes away. Same applies for the location of our solar system, and galaxy."

When you look at the size of the universe with all the galaxies and all the stars in each galaxy and the number of stars that have rotating planets, the idea that earth is the only one that can have life and even intelligent life does not compute

Recommend watching to get some idea of the size of the Universe this video is about the Hubble telescope's deep camera

www.youtube.com

Also consider where life exists on this planet, from thousands of feet below sea level to thousands of feet above sea level, from very wet to very dry, from very hot to very cold and look past through the history of Earth over thousands and thousands of years with great climate changes, and there is a vast difference of where life can exist.

Actually Earth is in a remote corner of our galaxy which is itself in a remote corner when looking at all the galaxies.

For those afraid that there may be life in other worlds, just think how scary it is if we are it for the whole universe for all time.

Who's to say there isn't life on other galaxies? Maybe those beings are more evolved than we are. Maybe less. Maybe part of our next life has to do with finding out!

It remains quite unfortunate and sad, that despite any evidence or logic, a significant proportion of people,( albeit an ever shrinking proportion), including some who are otherwise intelligent, continue to "believe" in magic, and mythology ....

Amazing that despite all the advances in science, some cling to Midieval , (and earlier) fairy tales.... I think it is just a testament to human fraility, and fear of our mortality.

"Who's to say there isn't life on other galaxies? Maybe those beings are more evolved than we are."

That then raises a question about our being special and unique and not just one of many species here on Earth and other worlds.

Has not mankind really made itself important, special and unique?

I believe in eternal death...

OTOH of interest is the idea like Pascal's Wager.

If you accept that you need to believe in God and follow God's rules to get into Heaven, then if you do not believe, then it does not make a difference as you will have a zero chance of getting into Heaven

Now, lets say there is an infinitesimal chance there is a God and there is an infinitesimal chance there is a Heaven, an infinitesimal number times an infinitesimal number is still greater than zero. Now have to factor in all the religions over time and all the Gods and now have to multiply that by the odds that you have picked the correct God, and the number gets even smaller, though still above zero. Now add in if you believe in Hell ..... if Hell is eternal damnation, an infinitesimal chance of that may need to be factored in.

As Clint Eastwood said in one of the Dirty Harry movies ... are you feeling lucky ;-)

If people believe in the afterlife, why are they so afraid to die?

How often do we see patients and families accept the dying process with dignity? Rarely.

How often do we hear them say "Do everything to keep me (or him or her) alive"?
Everyday.

I don't think many of those who proclaim a belief in an afterlife truly believe it.

I'd like to think that some of my awareness of self will persist in the future, but I'm not certain that this is the case. I don't think that we have any real knowledge of anything we have done in this life after we die - we just become part of something else. What we are composed of does continue on for a near eternity... just not in the same form. In my humble opinion, I think the best answer is that:

"We are all 'star stuff' ".

Paraphrased from Carl Sagan -"Cosmos".

My Guess is if God Could Post on Sermo He (or she) would say this.

"Listen...don't you have kids to hug, or spouses to kiss, or friends to hold? Quit worrying about what is going to happen after you die and pay attention to what is happening while you're alive. The now is for YOU, the then...is for ME. Now try the cheesecake."

"and the kugle."

"and the chopped liver, I gave that to you too."

Lou - Right on! Have to agree with you. Best to think about the present and worry less about what we really don't have any control over anyway... pass me a cherry blinz, will'ya, lou?

Wonposet, are you O.K.?

i agree with Lou.
Act in the living present ...

"at least try the herring, you have any idea how hard those things are to catch?"

I agree lou. If God exists I thinks he would want us to be happy while we're here. After that, it's up to him (or Him, if you prefer).

I'm reading "A Philosophy of Boredom," by Lars Svendsen. Is that what this is about, Wonposet? Are you bored? He quotes the character Kirilov in Dostoevsky's "The Possessed:" 'If God does not exist, then I become God,' and thereby become the "center for meaning." I can't think of anything more boring than that.

If you need some ideas of other stuff to read to help you get out of this slump send me an email.

If one believes the Universe sprang forth from a singularity arising spontaneously out of quantum foam, then one has to ask Why bother? That is, why have all this matter and energy floating around an infinite universe. It would seem that nothingness would be a more natural state. The fact that stuff exists at all is proof enough that human consciousness is here for a reason. I wouldn't expect to ever reach a state of enlightenment to know that reason, or the reason for its extinguishment.

Sermo Doc 6,

I think that's the mistake we so often make. When we think God's primary wish for us is happiness, it throws us for a loop when bad things happen. We lose faith, we question why a good God would allow (or cause) bad things to happen. Our entire belief and expectation of who God is, and how it is that God acts and intervenes in our lives is warped.

God isn't as interested in our happiness as much as He is interested in our holiness.

"God isn't as interested in our happiness as much as He is interested in our holiness."

Hmmm .... how do you really know that ..... I mean know, not think or wish, but really know?

Seems nations and military pray to God to be successful in war and so they must think God wants them to defeat their enemy.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg, New York Times, April 20, 1999 (American physicist and Nobel laureate in Physics )

"and the chopped liver, I gave that to you too."

... and gefilte fish and matzo ball soup

Seems like everybody here wants to think they understand the mind of God. That is not a reasonable assumption to start with.

Thank you, Sermo Doc 9.

I agree with you and I should have stuck with my previous word "content." I was responding to sayaah (obviously a very happy guy, what with the chopped liver and all) and agreeing with him that we should enjoy the beauty and pleasures that are around us, and used the word "happiness" in that sense. But it is a gift to be able to see those things and I suppose not everyone has it.

Along with you, I also feel that God calls us to be holy but I can't help but think that he also wants us to be content with our lives (not 'happy'). Perhaps 'acceptance' is a more accurate word for what I mean. Acceptance of what we are given.

I recall an Egyptian ER physician who told me of a saying in his country which he translated "Ten of Ten," meaning that we are each given a full complement of blessings to equal ten. More of one blessing than another and perhaps not the ones we feel we need most, but a full complement of ten in whatever way Allah wished to dole them out to us. Be content, thankful, or accepting, for what is given to us, was how I understood what this ER guy was saying.

Sayaah - Faith and reason that the scripture is God's word - holy, inspired, and innerant/infallible in the original manuscripts. It is consistent in its message that God created us and loves us, and desires our holiness - and uses adversity and suffering to melt away the dross and mold us more into His image.

For great explainations regarding the scientific reasoning part, see writings by Francis Schaeffer, C.S. Lewis, Blaise Pascal, etc....

Many think that the central focus of scripture is man. It's not. It is Christ. The Gospel is not a humanocentric one, but a Christocentric one. He will not share His glory with anyone, but allows us to share IN His glory. Big difference. Anyway, enough preaching. :-)

Sermo Doc 6 - I completely agree. I had a friend (since deceased), who used to say, "Happiness depends on what happens, but Joy comes form the Lord". I agree contentment and true happiness (joy) are things we should all strive for.

Sermo Doc 9 -

The God in the Scriptures is the God of Abraham who is also the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam and of all the different divisions and sects in each of those three religions and since they all do not agree, which one is correct and why are the others wrong.

Only one promotes loving and forgiving your enemy, and is completely void of any effort on our part to be "good enough" to earn a place in heaven.

Only one believes in the supremacy and deity of Christ who voluntarily gave up His position and power to pay our penatly.

Only one is completely and soley dependant on faith in His work and not our own. Though there is the balance that faith without work is dead, it is not the work that saves us. It is merely the proof or "fruit" of our faith. It is not a requirement, it is evidence of true faith.

Saying that, some of the most untrustworthy and evil people I have know have been "Christians". Again - goes to the authenticity of their faith (or lack thereof), not the truth of the Gospel.

I'll ask - which of the three focuses on man's effort, sacrifice, regulations, etc.... and which focuses on the work of God to reach out to man with mercy and grace? I'll give you that there are denominations that have made Christianity all about regulations and legalism, but what does the scripture teach if you read and study it for yourself?

Sermo Doc 9 -

All those reasons do not make it the one correct one.

You are citing what Christians believe as proof that it is correct.

Judaism, Islam, Hinduism et al also have their tenets and their religious texts and they too can list those as proof that theirs in the only true one.

Perhaps, if a God exists, that God is omnipotent enough to be able to be different things to different people and so there is not one way, but many ways.

Why would an omnipotent God be concerned about whether people believe or not, but by how they lead their life. Given a choice of an evil believer and a good non-believer, shouldn't a God favor the latter over the former?

I have no clue...but I refuse to live in fear as to what might happen. Live, love and laugh. And if you are not doing the above, fix your life and start now.

"... but what does the scripture teach ..." Sermo Doc 9

There are many different interpretations of even the same passages in the Bible, so which is correct.

In Judaism there is the Talmud. The Talmud is the main text regarding Jewish law, ethics, customs and history. Rabbinic scholars have spent days, weeks, months and even years discussing the meaning of even a single word or phrase, so there is hardly one interpretation. It is the same in other religions and their main texts.

It seems to me, that many interpret their religious texts to coincide with and "prove" their already established beliefs.

You are right Sermo Doc 5. It's not about belief. It's about life changing faith. People believe a lot of things, but it really only counts when it changes the way you live (also applicable to medicine).

You are also right that all those reasons do not make "it" the correct one.

When Christ said that He is the only way and that He is God, (and I'm sure you've heard this), you've got to ask, was He a liar, was He an idiot (or mentally disturbed/narcissistic/etc..), or was He telling the truth?

Look at it with deductive reasoning.

Sure there are a lot of attractive things in most religions, and many inter-related similarities. Where they all differ is in the diety and supremacy of Christ. He is the devisive and decisive figure. So the question becomes, what will you do with Christ? Either you believe what He said, or you beileve whatever else you choose to believe.

Ultimately, it comes down to faith. But reason also lends itself to the proof.

"Live, love and laugh." Sermo Doc 17

For those who believe in the Bible:

"A man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and be merry." (Ecclesiastes 8: 15)

"Let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we shall die." (Isaiah 22: 13)

Sermo Doc 9 -

It is ALL faith with religions and the only "deduction reasoning" is after the basic tenets of the religion, which are only based on faith, are accepted. Different religions with the same basic tenets can come by the same "deductive reasoning" to different conclusions.

From Wikipedia:

"The Orthodox Church, also officially called the Orthodox Catholic Church,and commonly referred to in English-speaking countries as the Eastern Orthodox Church,is the world's second largest Christian communion, estimated to number 225 million members It is considered by its adherents to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ and his Apostles almost 2,000 years ago."

I would imagine the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope do not agree.

Sermo Doc 9...you left out one thing.

"perhaps he never said it" or at least never said it in the way it was interpretted in the gospels. You see I grew up a Jew in the middle of christian country and I have talked this over a billion times. Jesus was a jew, a Jew would not profess to be God. It is a fundamental tennent of Judaism. So when Christ said he is God.

Was he really not a Jew?
Was He a liar?
Were his words misrepresented by overly enthusiastic admirers?

I don't know....and faith means the following

neither do you...you just hope it's the truth. :)

"you just hope it's the truth" - Sermo Doc 15.

You're spot on. :-) But my hope is not a disappointing hope like "I hope the Titans win" (they didn't), but it is a certain (secure) hope founded on Christ and His work on the cross (Rom 5). How do you explain the resurrection if He was/is not God? Witnessed by hundreds as recorded not just in the Gospels, 1 Corinthians, and Acts, but also by ancient historians (including Jewish ones) like Josephus and Eusebius.

By the way, that's the title of a book I'm writing - "a certain hope....Living Victoriously in the Midst of Adversity". It discusses the theology of suffering, addresses the 10 scriptural reasons that answer the question "why" it is that we suffer, and looks at our responses to suffering (what our responses usually are, and what they should be - anger/hostility/hurt vs love/forgiveness/giving).

Came out of a very trying decade (2000-2009) brought on by untrustworthy people, insecure and jealous colleagues, deceitful and manipulative corporations, financial ruin, disloyalty, ruined relationships, "Christians" who behaved like the devil, many who put financial gain and personal promotion ahead of character and integrity, "user friends", opportunists, backstabbers, and, of course, war.

Through it all, I learned a great deal, lost a ton of naivete, and lost a lot of my faith in humankind, though there were a few (very few) who were incredible in the way they stood by us, held our arms up, and really showed true love for us.

My dad used to tell me, "When you're successful, you'll have many who want to be your friend, but wait until you find yourself at the bottom of the heap. It is then that you'll find out who your true friends are." I didn't know what he meant until we went through all this.

Many "friends" vanished in the midst of all that...and many have now all of a sudden reappeared now that we're back on our feet. Who are the true friends? You tell me.

One thing it did teach me was how to be a good and true friend to those in need. I hope I never forget.

While I'm at it, another thing I came awfully close to losing (and I never thought in my wildest dreams that this would ever even be close to the case), was my faith in God's love for me and His willingness to intervene on my behalf or even keep His promises. (I didn't say salvation). I got to the point that I was done with God for good.

C.S. Lewis' book 'A Grief Observed' helped turn me around....

Anyway, more than you asked for. :-)

"...was my faith in God's love for me and His willingness to intervene on my behalf..." Sermo Doc 9

Another good book with a different perspective

When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Rabbi Harold S. Kushner

www.amazon.com

Sermo Doc 5, thank you for the video.
A man who was a resident when we were starting med school was Story Musgrave who became an astronaut and worked on the Hubble.

And, Lou, I so agree. You said it far better than I could have.

And, listen up, what about chocolate? But you guys knew I would add that. I may be a jewish mother , but I still know from chocolate

My grandparents were orthodox Jews and my parents more conservative. i say this because i was raised in a somewhat traditional Jewish household.

And yet, when there was a death in a family close to my parents, we went to the Catholic church for services and my parents explained that this worship would be different from the way in which we worshipped.

They said all these names the different faiths have are for the same God, just different names. And the religions are all different roads to get to the same place.

Simple, but perfect for a child to understand. They said Jews, and Christians and Muslims and Buddhists just took different roads to get to the place where they learned to treat others as they would want themselves to be treated.

"And, listen up, what about chocolate?" Sermo Doc 2

You mean like GODiva chocolates?

A Brief History of Chocolate, Food of the Gods

Of the many agricultural wonders produced in the New World, few ultimately proved as popular or as sweet as chocolatl. In the Aztec's Nahuatl language xocoatl or cacahuatl means "bitter water" (with atle or atl for water). A related Nahuatl word, cacao (source of the English word cocoa) refers to the bean itself, and is also used today to designate the ever-popular hot drink made from chocolate powder. The plant's botanical name, Theobroma cacao, literally means "food of the gods." To its many devotees, chocolate is exactly that.

www.athenapub.com

Perhaps churchill7, you should change your user name to TheobromaCacao

We are primarily spirits enduring a brief sojourn with a physical world. Why are we so determined to live as if we are physical world first with spiritual nature as a possibility ????

wow, wonposet. thanks for this dynamite recommendation. First i listened to scott simon interview carlos eire, great interview where mr eire said that in
past centuries it was easier to talk publicly about eternity,many people believed in
it and the culture supported it. Now people still believe in eternity, but it is only in the private domain where we wonder and declare our beliefs. Now, in this winter solstice, sacred/secular time, Wonposet is bringing this topic into our public forum. Since we seem to talk about everything under the sun on Sermo, what better than eternity?

I appreciate the courage of those of you airing your views of religion and eternity, which for me remains an on again off again belief. Carlos Eire in the interview says that he does believe in eternity, but that doubt and belief are always intertwined, part of one coin. You can hear that in the above comments too.

I too have had experiences that i rarely put into words, because i don't want anyone to scoff or laugh, and because it feels that the meaning will evaporate with too much talking, like a dream. One experience was associated with a loved one who had already died whom I saw in a dream, and another with the husband of a patient, where the husband had just passed away. These memories are real, but occupy a part of my mind that is not connected with any logical explanation. Do we believe in ghosts? Of course not. But then, what just happened? Can we communicate with those who have passed away? Are they somewhere? can we answer maybe?

As doctors, as inhabitants of the year 2009, in our private domains we have our own experiences with death and dying. I wonder if others have not had some experiences with some sense of the afterlife?

(Sermo Doc 11 don't you dare say something authoritarian and snarky)

Sermo Doc 18...I had a weird experience some years back. My grandmother lived with us all our life. She died in our home at age 94, she had a little apartment connected to our house and I would walk in and always see her sitting in the exact same chair. And I mean you could count on it like clockwork. One day after she died, I went into her apartment to get something, and when I opened the door there she was. I mean there she was sitting in the chair. I quickly closed my eyes and and shook my head and she was gone. The whole event lasted maybe 1-2 seconds. Now...I sat and thought about what had just happened. I think that over the years the image of her sitting there was so frequent that my brain just immediately went to that memory even before my eyes recorded what I was actually NOT seeing. Now that is my theory, I'm not sure, maybe I saw a ghost (though I don't believe in them) but it was really quite cool none the less.

it's never happened again though....I sorta wish it would, I really loved my grandma.

except when she got demented and started walking around in a bra

Don't know, but had interesting experience back in 1970 before I was in medical school or had any medical knowledge. Was doing a marine biology project on the reef off of Belize. Getting away from a 'Playful" shark caused me to lacerate my ankle on some coral. Couple days later couldn't walk so went to local ER. IM PCN...shortly thereafter...full arrest from anaphylaxis! I "watched" the resusitation from somewhere 'above' the er stretcher and team of nurses, etc. This was before the articles began being published about out of body experiences, White light tunnels, etc.

My concern is the universe - and the Big Bang - like, really, what was that piece of matter sitting in or on when it exploded?

Like the Chinese thing about standing on elephants - what's the bottom one standing on? "More elephants"

Plus - I think Wonposet is reading and giggling about what he started.

Not elephants, but turtles.

The most widely known version appears in Stephen Hawking's 1988 book A Brief History of Time

"A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever", said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!""

Carlos Eire begins his book with a statement which can neither be supported nor denied, but can apparently sell books. Quite similar to angels dancing on pinheads...

As for life after death, I haven't a clue what to believe. I see no evidence to support the teachings of christianity, judaism, islam, or any other of the many religions to the extent that I understand them, and I am utterly lacking in "faith". To paraphrase Jodie Foster in one of her movies, though, I understand that it's a bit arrogant to argue with the 95% of humanity who apparently do believe in some supreme being.

By all accounts, life after death will be better or worse depending on how your life is lived in the present, and life in the present seems to be far less brutish and more enjoyable if lived more or less in accordance with judeochrsitain ethics, so that's what I do. I don't spend time trying to discern the unknowable, and feel reasonably comfortable that I live a "good" life, consistent with ideals which will allow me to ascend to heaven, or obtain a gaggle of virgins, or return as a higher life form, or receive whatever reward is promised by all the various religions out there should one of them prove to actually have substance. But the fact is that, until I die, I don't seem to have any way to know which, if any, of them would be the one true religion...

As for the baseline question, I believe in Biology. I don't know how life got started (see religious discussion above), don't claim to have any lock on all the knowledge of the universe, and just accept that I'm here, without even having a fully firm grip on what "I" is (appropriate homage to Bill Clinton...) I "know" that I have a human lifetime bounded by conception and death; I accept that's there's a bit of ambiguity at the extremes, and I make no attempt to accept or deny some sort of life prior to or after my human life. Since I don't even know if it exists, it certainly would be difficult for me to comment on any aspect of it.

Me, write something "authoritarian and snarky"?

I would never consider such a thing....
But the subconscious is an amazing 'black box", isn't it ginger??

Happy Holidays...

Sermo Doc 21 - Perhaps a reason behind Jodie Foster's quote from the movie Contact can be found in the below article in New Scientist Magazine. A Google search or brain and religion gives other articles and studies

Born believers: How your brain creates God

www.newscientist.com

I am glad to see so many responses to my question in such a short time. I asked this question because the reviews of Carlos Eire's book, the excerpts I read from it, and the Weekend Edition program on National Public Radio led me to wonder how members of the Sermo community feel about eternal life.

That is why I posted this, nsmurali and Sermo Doc 7.

I have strong beliefs about life after death but will not yet share them in this post because I don't want to shift its purpose from surveying the beliefs of other physicians to a debate about what I believe.

It is possible that I will decide to share what I believe after more physicians have had an opportunity to post their comments.

I am not an anthropologist but it would seem that almost all ancient peoples believed in something bigger and greater than themselves. In time, this became known as a God as we now use the word. Over time, certain groups determined that they knew God's mind much better than other people did, and thus religion was created...........by man, for man and of man. Still, you research the basic tenants of the great religions of the world, and you find many similarities............and perhaps, it is these similarities that are representative of the real God and all the rest, man-made rules to aide those in power at that moment keep and strengthen their power. Yet, such heresy does not take away the fact that most of these religions believe in one supreme Being............one true God............one Creator.
I was brought up a good backbencher Southern Baptist..............never would drink without my beer being covered by the obligatory brown paper sack, never would dance in our town so I would travel to other venues to sin, etc, etc, etc. Began to question the man made dogmas of most religions, as I spent my college years searching for a faith that would fit my needs. After college, I found that I was most likely an agnostic but not a very good one of those either. But in medical school, late one night, deep into my cadaver, as I studied the intricacies of the abdominal blood supply, it dawned upon me, out of the clear sky, that this creature had to be created by someone a heap lot smarter than me............the beauty of the organization, its complex simplicity..............it was then, I just knew that there was indeed a God.........a Creator...........I cannot explain it, but I just knew it...........like the first time I spoke to my wife and knew that this strange beauty would someday be my wife.........I just knew it with every molecule of my body. I try to live my life with that knowledge............I attempt to keep what I feel are the basic tenants of most religions, love our neighbors as ourselves, etc...............but I do not belong to any organized religion. I study the Bible............the Torah..........even waded through the Koran with commentaries..................for within each is a kernel of truth............within each, their is some Word that may actually be from God.........and it is those words, not the words of man, that I seek. I do not look down upon those who take each of these great religious titles and then promotes it as the one and only; I just say that they are all complementary, and maybe taken together, just maybe, truth may be found.
You ask if for me, there is a God?..............why Yes Edward, there is a God.......at least for me..........is their life after death.............each of us will learn that truth in our own time and no amount of discussion with prove or disprove either position, so why waste time on its pondering...........but, I do really do hope that there is more to this journey.........I would love to spend some more time with my grandmother just as Lou would with his.

Do read this book( also reviewed in NPR in the program "to the best of our knowledge"
My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientist's Personal Journey by Ph.D., Jill Bolte Taylor. Her story of recovery and what she experienced soon after a stroke in the L hemisphere is fascinating. We really know very little about the inner working of brain or consciousness. Those who have gone "there" and returned have come back with humility but no greater understanding of the "unknown".
I also recommend for a change reading the Bhagvadgita, 2nd Adhyaya ( chapter). This is easier to understand than the hard to comprehend vedic Hinduism. If possible do read about the concepts of "Aham Bramhasmahi" and "tatvam Asi" considered one of the mahavakyas(Grand Pronouncements) of vedic hinduism). These are extremely ancient concepts, really hard to discuss in a blog.
Here is a reference to how eastern religions view these concepts:
www.spaceandmotion.com
The concept of infinity was defined very long ago in vedic mathematics. It provides a ( ? self fulfilling) universal frame of reference.

Yes - and I can cite an example. Any govt program.

In all seriousness, I believe the truth is far beyond what either religion or science can comprehend.

Sermo Doc 5, I should change my name. I named myself for my beloved cat, Sir Winston Churchill.

However, then I would have an identity crisis.

Already, I can't find my personality. Do not know where I left it.
And if I change my Sermo name, then there will be a cataclysmic identity crisis.
And the earth will shake, and doctors will no longer exist and PAs and NPS will take over the world and banks will get trillions of dollars.

See what I mean? Have to keep my name to prevent these crises. But has it worked so far? Hmmmmmmmm

My dear friend, who does the medical documentaries, did some work with Jill Bolte Taylor and is awed by that incredible woman.

And, Zich, that is an amazing experience.

I will have to get Dr. Taylor's book and read it.

I still go back and forth. i want so desperately to believe, but a part of me says "this is it, baby. Do the best you can here and don't sweat the small stuff."

Yey, I will do something, maybe at work at the computer and almost feel my brilliant mother or father's presence and say aloud. "I know. You really would get into this and love it."

Is it my brain hungering? Is it some essence of a beloved, caring parent?

I have seen people who should not have died, die, and have heard of or or seen people who should have died from an accident or illness, live. I don't try to make sense out of it, or else I would go crazy. For one, I would think: "Why? This is unfair!" I believe in God now, but had to read "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People" to stop trying to ponder things too much.

About 6 years ago, when my son was one year old, I was going through a rough time. I was so stressed and depressed, that I thought about death frequently, except I didn't have plans to kill myself, just felt it should happen.
One night I was driving home on a wet freeway, thinking about negative things, and very distracted. I was speeding. A car cut in front of me, and I swerved to avoid it. My car spun out of control, and turned around and around on the freeway several times, then smashed on the median. No other car was hit. I was wearing a seatbelt, but that was out of habit. My car was busted up very badly (totaled), and the cops and ambulance came. I was shaken up but got out of the car and walked around without injury. No pains afterwards, either. The paramedic and the cops were amazed that I wasn't hurt. I just felt like I drank about 20 cups of coffee.

Someone told me that I wasn't "meant" to die in that accident, for whatever reason. All I know is after that, I appreciated my family, especially my baby son, more and was so thankful he wasn't in that car.

Sermo Doc 2 -

You are right about everything that would happen if you changed your user name ..... just eat chocolate and not take it as an user name. We all owe you a debt of gratitude that we can never repay.

Perhaps if you could describe your personality we might be able to find it.

Well, I asked the psychotherapist (Our cousin who shares space with us).
She says I am warm and cuddly.
I asked my husband and he said "sweet."
Other than that, I am at a loss.

Personally, I think I am from the Planet Purple, so I guess it is also purple with a faint aroma of chocolate and a vanilla undertone

Sermo Doc 22, regarding ancient peoples and their beliefs: In my pre-medical life I was a student of ancient history with a particular interest in the ancient Near East and I have read what is called the "wisdom literature" of those peoples -- Israelites, Babylonians, Assyrians, and the writings of Confucius and Lao Tzu. They all say essentially the same thing, believe it or not. Not about this or that particular god or anything, but about the highest form of and goal for human behavior and attitudes. These writings have stood the test of time because they are helpful and universally applicable. And also beautiful poetry.

For starters, take a look at Ecclesiates, the Book of Proverbs, the Tao-te Ching and Confucius, and the Beatitudes in the New Testament.

One of my spiritual counsellors, Dominic Crossan, provided what I believe to be the best answer to this question:

"I don't know and I don't care. I am called to speak out against injustice whenever I see it, and to walk humbly with my G-d"

That's it. If G-d is there, and wants me to be a part of some eternity, well, that's Her call, not mine.

Our eternity is our legacy: family, reputation, durable contributions. That's it.

Mohican, so glad that you are here and well!!! and Lou, thanks for that image. And zeits too. and Sermo Doc 22, that is a beautiful experience of awe.

So here is a short story of mine: when my dearest aunt was near death, she wanted no extraordinary measures to be done. She was only in early 70's and still beautiful, but she had had MS for a long time and it had progressed, and ....she did not want to be a burden on my uncle anymore. When she got a UTI she was hospitalized. She had made it clear to her doctor not to do any treatment, but she did get some antibiotics and then probably C.diff.. I saw her in the hospital and she said to me that she had been so close to dying, that she had seen a bridge, had almost walked across it, there was light, and she felt so happy and peaceful, and then she was brought back to this world again. She said she could not stand to go through this again. I am in tears thinking about it. But she was able to say goodbye to everyone and to give us some of her courage, and in a day to pass away in peace with no further treatment. Like Zeits experience this was before the writings about such things.
This memory that is so rarely in my mind because no one else i know has admitted to similar thoughts, is very precious to me. And then shortly thereafter, my aunt did come in a dream, laughing and dancing as she had once loved to do, pointing a way for me, as she had so often in life. It all seemed so real at that time. I wanted to believe. With that memory I can feel the love for her that was/is still strong.
Thank you all for giving me the space to talk about this. I can talk about the other experience another time.

Wonder what percentage of Sermoans practice their religion ( ie. formal worship, contact with priest or minister on a regular basis for solace and advice, belief in Heaven and Hell, behaviors guided by fear of god rather than fear of consequences of action etc). Do you do that Wonposet?

Sermo Doc 22 said: "I am not an anthropologist but it would seem that almost all ancient peoples believed in something bigger and greater than themselves"

Having read this thread there is one common item coming up in everyones' mind. It is their 'belief' mechanism. It appears people draw upon a need to believe complex subject matter. It is called faith. Yet they never seem to question that the only reason they "know" the earth is an oblate spheroid as opposed to it being flat takes the very same belief mechanism. Why do they not question that??? No person has full objective proof that the earth is not flat. It is all a matter of faith. Or maybe we have some really advanced ones here who can explain it to me.

We, of course, can kick this around all night but I think the true arrogance lie in those who think they "have it right" and that includes the religious and the scientific who try to foist there beliefs on others.
Sermo Doc 11 and olhamada are just living 2 different myths and neither can be proved more than the other.
I don't assert that either are trying to force his beliefs on another because we are discussing our beliefs, nevertheless neither can be proven with any more certainty than the other.

"Sermo Doc 11 and olhamada are just living 2 different myths and neither can be proved more than the other." Ebola100

Cannot really prove the non-existence of a God and it is likely that no one will ever prove the existence of God either.

For someone believing in something unknown and unproved it could be said that it is a myth, but for someone saying they do not believe in that same thing, is not really a myth.

One group says there is a God and another says there is not and a third says they do not know. For those who believe in a God it ranges from those who say God created the universe and left it alone all way to a God who micromanages everything involving every person.

We are limited by a physical body with five senses, yet our intellect has allowed us to develop things which far expand our capacity. With technology expanding at an exponential rate, our knowledge and abilities will continue to allow us to "experience" things that were previously unknowable. Yet, I wonder will humanity ever be able to know everything about the universe?

As far as belief in an afterlife - Yes Virginia, I do believe. Still, I am not so vain as to believe I have any idea what it will be like. Sermo Doc 11 implied such beliefs are mere myth, but what is myth may not be in the future. We are energy, and energy does not just disappear, it goes somewhere. I've been around enough to see patterns, but not around long enough or smart enough to recognize their true nature. Further knowledge of Chaos Theory might lead us to recognize the action and effect better, but maybe never quite enough. Whether our energy retains its unique cohesion, or we become a part of the universe in bits and pieces, or we join some sort of collective consciousness - we do continue.

Sayaah quoted from Ecclesiastes earlier, one of my favorite books in the Bible. Yet the Bible can not be viewed as an infallible source, given that a lot of what is in it, from the Christian perspective, was based upon what Constantine wanted. And it has been added to, subtracted from and changed throughout the centuries since.

But in the end, myth or no myth, I'm hoping when I get to whatever Heaven is like, I get to fly and fight bad guys, because that would be fun. I am not sure I want to sit around and sing praises all day long, since unless I get a new set of vocal cords, that would be a sure way for me to get kicked out... :)

"Whether our energy retains its unique cohesion, or we become a part of the universe in bits and pieces, or we join some sort of collective consciousness - we do continue."

We are already part of the universe......or do you have your own definition of universe which you would care to share??

Sayaah,
There is some (a little) merit to your argument but in your eagerness to state the obvious you have missed the whole question. The question is not if God exists or even if you believe in God. The question is "Do You Believe In Eternal Life?".
Wonposet correctly mentions religious tenets, most of which include some sort of life after death, but I believe the question is larger than that and I believe he is not just concerned with Christian or other religious beliefs. I expect he will correct me if I am wrong.

BTW, It is turtles all the way down Sermo Doc 11. ;-)

I think I agree with Hippo on something??? I'm going to check my BP.

Sayaah, don't go to the light until I have convinced you of all my correct ideas!! :-)

Zeits, good to hear from you again.

"Yet the Bible can not be viewed as an infallible source, given that a lot of what is in it, from the Christian perspective, was based upon what Constantine wanted. And it has been added to, subtracted from and changed throughout the centuries since." Sermo Doc 27

So, which parts are a true .... which parts are the "Word of God" ?

"..if I am wrong."Sermo Doc 26

If ???????????? ;-)

Yes, sometimes I (and these threads) go off on a tangent, but (there is very often a but), do you know anyone who is an atheist who believes in eternal life. Without a belief in a God, mankind would not be special, only further advanced than other species (though other species can do things we cannot), so why would there be eternal life? Gets back to the old question did God create man or did man create God?

I think, I am being misinterpreted. My statement had nothing to do with our currently being part of the universe, but whether or not, Hippocrates, our uniqueness persists after bodily decay in a cohesive whole.

Additionally Sermo Doc 5, I make no comment on what is or is not absolute truth in Biblical terms. But human power and money seems to make certain things more true than others.

Sermo Doc 27 -

My comment was not really directed to you, but a general question of how does one determine which are true .... seems to be based on one's beliefs and, in the Bible, what agrees and disagrees with those beliefs.

"Gets back to the old question did God create man or did man create God? " -Sermo Doc 5

Man has created numerous gods (and a few goddesses as well). That's any easy answer.

The FOOL has saith in his heart there is NO GOD! A LIAR or the TRUTH!!!

And so the HYPOCRISY and FOOLISHNESS of man from brute knowledge, expertise, education, profession, etc, etc, etc ... to adorn themselves deities "higher than anyone but themselves!!!! A tool that the DEVIL silently squirms of his disciples!!!

But the revelation of HIS Sovereignty, divinity is KEPT and HIDDEN to only those who humble(d) themselves and have FAITH that HIS GRACE may abound and be accepted as His Children,,, "unless you are just like this little children, you will not inherit the kingdom of God! (eternal life!!!!)!... Sadly, very FEW will enter into the kingdom of GOD! And Nicodemus a JEW, a Pharisee visiting the "Good Teacher" at night...

The FEAR of GOD and His love on the CROSS. His Divine nature is REVEALED to those whom HE knew whose heart is known of thee! HE looks up to humanity since HIS creation, as our hearts are seen for its integrity , sincerity and genuineness and knows whether such FAITH could be refined as gold seven times!!!!! As Sermo Doc 9 avers, Gods excellency, supremacy, sovereignty, HIS prerogative for after all HE IS GOD, I AM who I AM!!!!!

An admonition... Search the SCRIPTURES, it is they that testify of ME!...

Hmmmm, I may not need it... I am MD, PhD, ThD and Bernie Madoff, Tiger Woods, etc proteges! I may just be burried with my billions ... where.... oh the gulp so deep and wide!!

... :)... excuse me... where am I?? .. Lost or Found! Amazing, amazing, amazing Grace!

Sermo Doc 5,
>Without a belief in a God, mankind would not be special, only further advanced than other species (though other species can do things we cannot), so why would there be eternal life? Gets back to the old question did God create man or did man create God? <

There is no question that we are special, Sermo Doc 5, And it is not necessary to believe in God to see this, believe it and prove it.

What does the statement mean??? What has it to do with eternal life???

Chili,
Do Buddhists believe in eternal life?

"There is no question that we are special, Sayaah, And it is not necessary to believe in God to see this, believe it and prove it." Sermo Doc 26

What is it that makes us "special" and not just a species, homo sapiens, further advanced in evolution than some other species, some of which we share a lot of DNA.

Was man created de novo or did something happen on the road of evolution where there was suddenly something completely different when the first man appeared?

As I understand it, it is more like lighting a candle with an already lit one, then extinguishing the first one. The flame continues but is not the "same" flame. Is that "eternal life"? I don't know. I do know they have no need of a god to worship.

I personally do not believe humans are "special" any more than any sentient being is special.

<further advanced in evolution than some other species, >

Sidebar challenge, saaah: What does it mean to say we're "further advanced"?

I'll let Sermo Doc 5 answer, but I don't think we are "further advanced".

Evolution is kind of like a tree. Developement goes off in various directions and you would be hard pressed to say which branch is most advanced. It depends entirely on your perspective. Other animals have much more sophisticated abilities than humans do in some areas (echolocation in bats and whales for example). We are arguably more capable in others (written communication).

Not every evolutionary development is an advantage. Some changes which arise may be disadvantageous or become disadvantageous over time and those individuals who express them may find themselves becoming extinct. Maybe this need to worship a deity and control others beliefs is a maladaptive evolutionary change for us?

So a rat is a dog is a boy is a frog??

Whether one believes we are special or not it can certainly be proven.

If a new computer was developed that used DNA for memory instead of the usual memory chip would you say that this would be a "special" computer.

"So a rat is a dog is a boy is a frog??"

Obviously not. They are all different but is one more "special" or advanced? By what criteria?

I don't understand the computer question at all.

Further advanced on one limb of the tree of evolution.

Many other animals do some things much "better" than we do and some do things similar to what we do .... or do we do things similar to what they do.

Most who consider man "special" do so because in their view God created man in God's image. To those who believe that, ages from now, does that mean we will not change ... this is a good as it gets .... after all some like the crocodile have been unchanged for a long time so will be like the crocodile?

All this talk about evolution. How do you reconcile this with the second law of thermodynamics - that all of nature is continually degenerating towards disorder? How do you explain the reversal of natural law - not just for an instant, but for eons?

All these complex cellular reactions that are coordinated to produce a functioning, thinking, questioning, industrious life form?

No explanation other than God. Evolution just doesn't cut it.

The second law of thermodynamics is intact. We are evolving towards disorder. The strongest, most intellegent, healthiest human that ever lived was Adam (and Eve). Since then, we have slowly continued to deteriorate.

Sermo Doc 5,
I not going to argue God with you. Please support your claim that most who consider man "special" do so because they believe God created man in his image. Do you have any statistics to back your assertion??

Chili,
The computer question is not a trick question.
If there was a computer that used regular memory chips and someone developed a computer that used DNA for memory that replicated to produce more memory and store things in RNA (some have theorized that such a computer might be developed in the future) would you consider this a "special" computer? What is not to understand?

This and politics are not good conversation.

"No explanation other than God. Evolution just doesn't cut it." Sermo Doc 9

No ..... sorry I've heard your argument before and there are very good arguments against it.

Quick Google search gave this one:

Does evolution violate the second law of thermodynamics? Creationists say yes. This article describes in detail why the creationists are wrong.

www.talkorigins.org

Sermo Doc 26

How else could man consider himself special compared to all other life unless it is based on a God. What else would it be based on?

But Sermo Doc 1 this is a pleasant change from the multitude of threads about health care reform, Obama, Pelosi, Reid etc.

This thread, definitely, is fascinating.

I am still not sure how I feel. I have not been to synagogue in years.
Yet, on Friday nights, when I get home in time, I light candles and think about long lines of women before me, ushering in the sabbath, way back to tents and deserts.
Then, I feel a sense of serenity wrap itself around me, like a cocoon sent by my mothers and grandmothers.

2nd law of thermodynamics is a man-made law (one of several by Newton, i think). anyway to say that life forms are the product of g-d because its so complex and great seems, to me, to be a tautology.
i think my kids are wonderful because they are wonderful.

Sermo Doc 5,
Man could consider himself special based on his observations that he is by far the most highly evolved and intelligent form of life on this planet.

The vegans demonstrate against eating but the pigs and cows aren't complaining so it must be OK by them.

The lowly ant can lift multiples of its weight but we aren't electing them President.

In fact, compared to ALL other life there is no other conclusion to be reached.

I think the burden is on you to prove that Man is not special!

"I think the burden is on you to prove that Man is not special!" Sermo Doc 26]

No, those who claim man is special, as opposed to just another species, are the ones to prove that claim.

If man is special because of being "the most highly evolved and intelligent form of life on this planet" then what happens in the future when man evolves further in the future as most species do, unless we are more like the crocodile than other species. What happens if life is found in the Universe with more advanced and intelligent life than us?

You forgot the opposable thumb and walking on two legs which frees up our hands which are very important as doing things which our higher level of intelligence lets us do.

Sermo Doc 5,
>No, those who claim man is special, as opposed to just another species, are the ones to prove that claim.<

No, with such overwhelming evidence that Man is special it is your burden to prove that he is not.

>If man is special because of being "the most highly evolved and intelligent form of life on this planet" then what happens in the future when man evolves further in the future as most species do, unless we are more like the crocodile than other species. What happens if life is found in the Universe with more advanced and intelligent life than us?<

Then he won't be as "special", will he?

>You forgot the opposable thumb and walking on two legs which frees up our hands which are very important as doing things which our higher level of intelligence lets us do. <

You prove my point.

For one who consistently argues against God, you are the most religious person I think I have ever met. You just won't comment about any argument without bring God into it. Why??

Chili,
>Evolution is kind of like a tree. Developement goes off in various directions and you would be hard pressed to say which branch is most advanced. It depends entirely on your perspective. Other animals have much more sophisticated abilities than humans do in some areas (echolocation in bats and whales for example). We are arguably more capable in others (written communication).<

Humans are ARGUABLY more capable than bats and whales at written communication?? :-) Puleeese!

Could it be that we don't need echolocation because we have a brain with which to compensate for such sophisticated abilities? Pretty special huh?

By whose perspective (with the possible exception of Sermo Doc 5) is ANY other known life form more advanced (i.e., special) than Man?

"No, with such overwhelming evidence that Man is special it is your burden to prove that he is not." Sermo Doc 26

What overwhelming reproducible, evidence ? Just because we are further advanced in certain areas compared to other species does not make us special.

I guess by special I mean the way some religions view man as being a separate and unique creature created in their God's image ... that evidence I would like to see.

NOVA PRESENTS
What Darwin Never Knew
Tuesday, December 29 at 8pm ET/PT on NOVA

"What Darwin Never Knew" offers answers to riddles that Darwin
couldn't explain. Breakthroughs in a brand-new science--nicknamed
"evo devo"--are linking the enigmas of evolution to another of
nature's great mysteries, the development of the embryo. NOVA takes
viewers on a journey from the Galapagos Islands to the Arctic, and
from the explosion of animal forms half a billion years ago to the
research labs of today. Scientists are finally beginning to crack
nature's biggest secrets at the genetic level. The results are
confirming the brilliance of Darwin's insights while revealing clues
to life's breathtaking diversity in ways the great naturalist could
scarcely have imagined.

See how closely parts of your body match those in other animals,
from sharks to fruit flies, find out what the science of "evo devo"
is all about, and more on the program's companion website.

Watch the program online beginning December 30.

www.pbs.org

Row, row, row your boat

Gently down the stream

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,

Life is but a dream.

English language nursery rhyme

"Humans are ARGUABLY more capable than bats and whales at written communication?? :-) Puleeese!" Sermo Doc 26

Bats can navigate much better than man in the dark, whales can communicate over of thousands miles in the ocean with no artificial aids, birds can fly to an exact spot thousands of miles without stopping for directions, going around in circles because do want to ask and not needing a GPS. For bats who spend days in dark caves and come out at night, it would be hard to read in the dark and whales who live in the ocean the paper would get wet and be to write on and read when wet ...... Puleeese!

Finally, how many other species have malpractice plaintiff attorneys, insurance company CEOs and hospital administrators !!!!!!!!!

"Life is but a dream." Sermo Doc 30

Sorry Sermo Doc 30 but you are so very very very wrong

This is life:

www.youtube.com

Sermo Doc 5- I will have to stand corrected, but I don't think that the two ideas are mutually exclusive, what say you?

Ebola,
Can you breath underwater?
Can you fly?
Can you change your appearance instantaneously for camoflage?
Can you communicate with others over thousands of miles without artificial technology?
Can you dive to thousands of feet below the sea on a single breath?
Can you sense minute disturbances in the electromagnetic field and use them?
Can you follow minute scent particles over miles?
There are "special" animals who can do these things. (Fish, birds, squid, whales, whales again, sharks, dogs).

Written communication was simply an example of "special" abilities humans have. I certainly wasn't implying that bats and whales write, but what if we find that another species does use written communication? As you said, then we are less special.

Another example of human "specialness" is the ability to wage war based upon faith in a certain mythology. Or subjugate a class of people (women, blacks) based on "beliefs". That's specialness I wish we'd lose.

It's all anthropomorphism to me... :)

if there is a Socrates on this site, at least one as depicted by Plato, that would be Sermo Doc 5.

I mean that with the greatest respect.

Sermo Doc 30 -

Life and cherries are both sweet, and both grow and mature and die, and both also have their pits.

Washoe (c. September 1965 - October 30, 2007) was a chimpanzee who was the first non-human to learn to use some of the signs of a human language, that of American Sign Language. She also passed on some of her knowledge to her adopted son, Loulis

As part of a research experiment on animal language acquisition, Washoe developed an ability to communicate with humans using ASL. She was named for Washoe County, Nevada, where she was raised and taught to use ASL. Washoe had lived at Central Washington University since 1980; on October 30, 2007, officials from the Chimpanzee and Human Communication Institute on the CWU campus announced that she had died at the age of 42.

en.wikipedia.org

Since we must persist, the distinction as I understand it and as argued by others, is what has developed as adaptations for survival versus adaptations that do not aid survival. Consciousness, Reason - call it what you will, but in that lies the distinction and the "specialness".

This can, obviously, be argued and defining our uniqueness as our ability to reason is also used in a myriad of ethical questions as to whether those who can not reason are no longer human and thus can be treated as less - eg infanticide - and so on.

Can we move on from the anthropocentrist arguments?

Perhaps the question is what makes us human. Do other species have consciousness and reason .... perhaps not to our level, but to a lower level so we are just more advanced.

As a teenager, I have personally witnessed a group of dozen or so Rhesus macaque monkeys ( a close knit family that used to come for the guava fruits in our backyard) take a dead little one in arms and solemnly and burying it after it was killed by a pebble thrown at it by a neighbor. Their grief was visible and palpable. We really know very little about other living things ( or even if some things are living!).

again, that is mere anthropomorphism. You are defining their actions in your terms.

NO! I am looking at me from the monkey's angle. It might be wondering what happened on the way through evolution? How did humans end up like this? I can almost think of a monkey admonishing its young one..Don't you ever behave like that when you evolve...we "humans" have an exalted view of "life"..The GEICO caveman ad comes to mind!

This is a very interesting question and each person's answers and reasons will be different. I highly recommend reading the book 'Into the Light' by John Lerma, MD, who woeks with hospice patients at MD Anderson. The pre-death experiences relayed by his patients are nothing short of unbelievable. If you don't believe that there is a God who cares for us after reading this, then there will probably never be anything that can convince you...

I don't believe in God, and cannot see how a person can be a scientist and do so. At least they must suspend a scientific viewpoint for that part of their life.

As for eternal life, I think it is doubtful, and see no evidence that it exists. As such, there is no reason to believe in it. However, we do know that the universe exists in far more dimensions that up/down, left/right, front/back, and time. In fact there are 7 more, as defined by the work of Einstein and subsequent quantum physicists. We know that our dimensions are malleable, and that under certain conditions matter from the dimensions we perceive can change into matter in another dimension. The transformation of matter to energy is likely one of these phenomenae. The convergence of matter into a single point in a singularity (black hole) is another.

As such, I believe there is a scientific substrate to one day understand a "soul" and the potential for that soul to persist after corporeal death, and that we may one day understand it. It is my hope that when that happens, we can have a convergence of science and religion and not so much damn hatred over it.

Dr. Murali of Orangeburg SC's comments are insightful and most appreciated. Thank you, Dr. Murali, for your kindness in sharing your thoughts.

you are all dust in the wind

Life after death is a belief. We have not scientifically proved it on the earth. If you are religious you will follow the teachings blindly. But if you question the validity of the faith there is no answer like the existance of God.

It is all about frame of reference....Einstein came close..but did not quite explain everything. Do read about another quantum physicist E.C George Sudarshan's writings as well..

We in medicine are able to see the wonders and complexities of the human body.A fantastic machine that functions at many different levels but all intertwined. Has there ever been anything even remotely similar that developed by accident ? We may be able to replicate the human gene sequence , but who did it in the first place? From the earliest times,man recognized some form of higher life, Why? All I know is if there no after life and I die, I am as you nothing, but if there is a heaven and I believe!!!!

My weighing of the evidence seems to support it. If we truly seek the truth, then why are we the only species on this planet with sentience? We memorialize ourselves in writings, monuments, songs, etc. We refuse to believe our conciousness will cease. If this is evidence for "being made in God's image," then there probably is a life after death. If evolution was the only way we got here, then why aren't there other life forms with similar behavior? Nothing else on this planet has been or is presently like mankind. I don't suscribe to anecdotal evidence or personal experiences, but I think what we are the best evidence for a God and that He made us.

Why? I don't know..but I guess we'll all find out some day...

I believe that we are in this earth for a purpose, the relationships we establish are ways to teach us, guide us through life and beyond, those around us are there for a reason...

When my oldest son was born, my sister visited me. I love my sister to death, would give her my only heart. She loves my son, and whenever she held or played with him over the years, I could not help thinking "he belongs to her". Years after he was born, my mother told me that my sister told her, with tears in her eyes, "mom, I never told Vanessa [me] this, but I feel so priviledged that the universe would reunite me with my son in this life..." I know it sounds crazy, but my son and my sister are two souls alike, and feel very happy to have been the vessel through which my son was born, and could meet my sister in this life.

The nova program on PBS is on 29th December 2009 according to their website.

Sermo Doc 5,
>What overwhelming reproducible, evidence ? Just because we are further advanced in certain areas compared to other species does not make us special.<

So say you according to your mythology of what "special" is. You can't make the rules to suit your own beliefs.
Why don't you give us your definition of what "special" is?

I believe in reincarnation. I further believe that I have lived a lot of lives. Interestingly, I have been physician in all of them. I guess thats why I am such a good physician. You have got to pick up a lot of skill practicing medicine for 600 years. Thats what I told Pharoah when I was his MD.

Einstein's Relativity and Quantum mechanic were great additions to our knowledge of our universe. The problem is that they are mutually exclusive, in other words, they can not both be right, given our current understanding. I know, the search is on for the unifying theory but I wonder how many "facts" will in the future will end up on the bone heap. I can think of many in my lifetime in Medicine.

We just celebrated Christmas- Our Savior's birthday last week and remembered that Jesus became flesh for our sins. He then was crucified and took our sins with Him on the cross. He then rose from the dead, all along preaching as it says in Ephesians " For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- it is the gift of God. Indisputable!!!!! Eternal Life only comes with a true belief in Christ the Lord.
Peace to you all.

Special, distinguished by unique or unusual quality.

Chili, you haven't answered my computer example yet. How about you Sermo Doc 5 can you answer the computer question?

Yes, Chili, I can do all those things, can whales?

Getting back to the title of this post, the problem is that "believe in" can mean two different things.

First, do you think it is a fact, as in "I believe in" Santa Claus or evolution or whatever.

Second, do you approve of it, as in "I believe in" everybody minding their own business, or free markets, etc.

So I believe in eternal life in the second sense. I'm in favor of it.

I have seen Men flying, when I see whales flying I'll reconsider your point.

Pretty special to be able to do things that you were not even equipped to do wouldn't you say?

Really, I can't even imagine in my wildest dreams any argument that could be made to refute the facts visible to everyone with eyes to see.

I find it refreshing to see a relatively small proportion of the responses from fundamentalists. I don't usually spend this much time reading an entire thread this long, but this one has been enjoyable. So many etherial concepts that feel rather good.

Of course, none of this changes minds, and I've come to peace with that reality of the the human condition. I have asked many non-believers if there is anything that could be presented that would change their mind. Invariably, they present interesting postulations from DNA to cosmic discoveries that would 'convert' them. On the other hand, when I've asked the same question of believers - i.e. is there anything you can imagine that if discovered could alter your beliefs, they typically ponder silently for a moment, then answer, "No. There is nothing I can imagine that would change my mind." Such is the paradox of the believer vs. the skeptic.

Wonposet again a great topic. Yes I absolutely believe in God and Eternal Life. As far as the evolution that has crept in the topic-
Two books
Limits of Darwinism- Michael Behe
Signature in the Cell- Stephen Meyer
Great books present loads of real evidence that evolution is likely a tinkerer not an engineer
I absolutely know I don't know- I have some wishful hopes-
All good souls that have tried to help others and have a faith in God will get in heaven. Heaven would be a boring place if Lou didn't make it in.
Yes, I agree Lou/Yoda- Jesus was a Jew and as such we believe in the same higher power.
Note to self- convert lou at a later date.
Hope you are well wonposet

"How do you feel about eternal life?"

Short answer is that it would be nice if true. . . maybe. . .but highly unlikely given that everthing I know, experience or behold has a beginnning, middle and an end. The universe itself will end at some point as well as everything in it. Given that, I think we have to accept the fact that we will end too. Very distressing, if you think about it!

It is for those reasons that, although a non-believer and quite happy about it, I understand those who do believe and do not begrudge them their comfort against the untimate end. Further, I believe human life is the most precious thing in the universe, above all else, precisely because I can have no faith in eternal life; no real faith at all.

"We in medicine are able to see the wonders and complexities of the human body.A fantastic machine that functions at many different levels but all intertwined. Has there ever been anything even remotely similar that developed by accident ?" Sermo Doc 36

It can be a random event. Over the billions of years the universe has existed and the billions and billions of galaxies each with millions or billions of stars and all the planets that exist around all these stars over millions and billions of years, there is a large enough number that there can be some reasonable odds that life could start and become intelligent life. Have enough people flip a coin over a long enough time and someone will get heads one billion times in a row.

So man can be here, not by accident, but by beating the odds and "winning."

In that view, if that did not happen, we would not be here and we are here only because of that

Since mankind has only existed for a relatively short time in comparison to the existence of Earth, our solar system, our galaxy and the universe, have to wonder what was going on all that time before. Have to wonder if the dinosaurs had not become extinct over a short period of time 65 million years ago, whether mammals would have grown and evolved and eventually evolved into man.

Wonposet-----What next?? Do I believe in witches and warlocks ? This topic cannot be discussed on a RATIONAL basis----No I DON"T BELIEVE IN MAGIC

Oh WAIt I just saw jesus in by chili burger sauce!!!! Now I believe Too !!!!!

"Why? I don't know..but I guess we'll all find out some day... " - Sermo Doc 37

We may not find out someday because if there is no afterlife and we just cease to exist, there will be no way for us to know.

Triva Question. All religions are man made except for two. What are the two? Answer: The christian and jewish religions were started by God. Proof is the future events fortold by the Old Testament profits. Two of many examples. 1)The Jewish nation would be born in one day (May 14, 1947 by UN charter)fortold by Isiah. 2)Persian empire would be followed by the Greek empire followed by the Roman empire fortold hundreds of years beforehand by Daniel. Daniel even predicted the Greek leader(Alexander the Great) would give his empire to four people. History shows that the empire was split up between his 4 top generals after his pre-mature death(dust off your history books). The evidence for Christianity is the fact that Jesus rose from the dead, performed many miracles and fullfilled many prophecies. Did the founder of any other religion do any miracles or claim he fullfilled any prophiecies or state any prophecies that would occur in the future? No because he knew he couldn't live up to the scrutiny of history. It is easy to say I got this special revalation from god and not be able to prove it is from god somehow.

OH------ Sermo Doc 5 "young butterfly"---you must study the remains of your meal [whatever it is ] ----eventually you will see your god---hopefully those around will see the same god or you will cease to exist as thier god is the correct one--and they will correct your misconceptions by battering you to death with their holy book .

Dear Ebola

Respectfully there are some things that cannot be proven by scientific method or mathematically expressed. Because they cannot be reproduced by an experiment.

If you have ever loved someone, I challenge you to prove that you did. You can say you do, and you can do nice things for that person, but it's still not proof. Maybe you're just fooling everyone when you really don't care about the person you say you love. It happens all the time.

That same thing applies to God and life after death.. We can only go by what evidence points to it. And I contend that our "special" consciousness and sentience is evidence for God and therefore life after death in some form.

Keep an open mind at least...I intend to. I daily have doubts as anyone does about God and the afterlife. But I am willing to consider your view if you can give me a reasonable alternative.

If nothing else, it gives many comfort in a positive way without being drugged out on antidepressants and tranquilzers. And if you are wrong, you will have lost out on a lot

Sermo Doc 46------Do you also get revalations about your patients ? If so tell me how so I can have an easier day!

"So say you according to your mythology of what "special" is. You can't make the rules to suit your own beliefs.
Why don't you give us your definition of what "special" is?" Sermo Doc 26

Seems to me someone who does not believe in someone or something which is unknown can be accused of believing in a myth, but what is the myth of those who do not believe?

I do not have a definition of "special" as we are further advanced in some areas than other animals, but less in other areas. We can use tools,but so do other animals.

We can have abstract thought, but with no means of communicating with other animals, we have no way of knowing if this is unique or just further advanced.

Perhaps, you can tell me if you view mankind as "special" and if so, what is your definition or do we agree that mankind is not special.

Sermo Doc 45-----I don't get revelations, I read history books.

Just about every religion is filled with beliefs in prophecies and miracles. Actual scientific, empiric evidence of the veracity of these prophecies and miracles is non-existent.

What evidence is there that Moses existed other than a story in the Old testament? Why doesn't this story also occur in Egyptian history? You'd think there would be some mention of a slave uprising, plagues, widespread death, the army vanishing into the Red (or reed) Sea. Nope nothing.

Again, what is the evidence for the "facts" about Jesus which you claim? All we have is a collection of stories written well after his supposed life. No contemporaneous mention of these stories in Greek or Roman history. No physical artifacts (other than demonstrated fakes like the shroud of Turin).

Can't prove:

love
like
sincerity
sarcasm
ecstasy
humor
distrust

my g-d--what a lot of things one prove (unless you have a PETT scanner).

but i still have one queston: are the Old Testament Profits still taxable after all these yrs and if so at what rate? and are the dividends taxable too?

"If you have ever loved someone, I challenge you to prove that you did." Sermo Doc 37

The difference is that people of faith believe that their God does actually exist and created everything and some even believe their God micromanages every aspect of their life and that if they follow the rules of their religion they will have eternal afterlife. That is in a whole different league from the question of love.

Psychologist Explains The Neurochemistry Behind Romance

ScienceDaily (Feb. 14, 2007) — The Beatles' George Harrison wondered in his famous love song about the "something" that "attracts me like no other lover."

A University at Buffalo expert explains that that "something" is actually several physical elements that -- if they occur in a certain order, at the right time and in the right place -- can result in true love.

"There are several types of chemistry required in romantic relationships," according to Mark B. Kristal, professor of psychology in the UB College of Arts and Sciences. "It seems like a variety of different neurochemical processes and external stimuli have to click in the right complex and the right sequence for someone to fall in love."

First, there's smell, made up of learned or cultural preferences, such as the smell of a dozen long-stemmed red roses.

"Smell forms part of the framework that conforms to cultural attractiveness standards; for example, smelling like a strawberry instead of mildew," he says.

Next, there are pheromones, which are more mysterious to us humans.

"Pheromones are unlearned, and perhaps unsmellable, signals that enter the brain through the olfactory system. They can function in sex, alarm, territoriality, aggression, and fear," Kristal said, adding that while sex attractant pheromones may explain changes in libido, they don't explain why we choose a specific person for a mate.

"In humans, specific mates are more probably chosen on the basis of other sensory cues: visual, regular olfactory, auditory and tactile cues," Kristal notes. And these cues, especially smell, strengthen with time.

"After a certain amount of bonding, specific mates may be more recognizable to each other by smells rather than by pheromones. Studies show that people can recognize unwashed t-shirts belonging to their mates by the smell."

Then there is the brain, which produces its own substances that are involved in bonding.

"Two related brain peptides, vasopressin and oxytocin, have been shown to be involved in both the permanent or long-term social bonding that underlies mating," Kristal says. "The neurotransmitter dopamine, in a part of the brain called the VTA, is certainly involved in the rewarding properties of love and sex."

But aphrodisiacs -- foods, drugs and other substances that claim to increase sexual interest -- are a "myth," according to Kristal, who advises that it would be better to "smell good and look successful" in order to attract a potential mate this Valentine's Day.

And keep handy a copy of the "Something" CD, just in case.

The University at Buffalo is a premier research-intensive public university, the largest and most comprehensive campus in the State University of New York.

www.sciencedaily.com

If there is an afterlife, let.s all meet in a corner marked *Sermo*

I'm a fallen away Catholic who still believes in God and the afterlife. I don't know if I still believe in Purgatory but, if there is one, I hope time spent on call counts towards it!

Sermo Doc 5,

The above thoughts about love are more unprovable statements w/o proper studies but they are apparently part of your favored mythologies.

I've given you my definition of "special" above but will repeat it. BTW I took it from the dictionary.

Special, distinguished by unique or unusual quality.

Now please give me the courtesy of stating your definition and answering my computer question, Chili says she doesn't understand it.

If you are saying Man is not special then you must have some definition on which to base this belief. If you don't know what it is perhaps we can help you to figure it out.

a long thread, perhaps I should read War and Peace one day while sitting on the potty, but then a physician, while I was at university still, once told me not to read medicine on the potty as the info would go in and out at the same time, and I might as well hang onto the info a short while. He was a psychiatrist.
Some of the above in this thread is bogus, sorry to offend, but there is no perception, no evidence, no knowledge of what follows life. There have been reports of 'lights' and 'light perceptions and calm', yet we lack any data, any hard evidence, any awareness. What we have is tremendous desire and the requisite leaps of faith.
The other folly above is the selfish reference to us, the hu-mans, as the only sentient beings on this planet and in the universe. Clearly, those bozos have not truly met any other animals out there, so I would suggest some time volunteered at your local shelters.
And why the intense pre-occupation with the after-life? What is the before-life? Suddenly we 'are', we 'exist', and for eternity?
This all is religious, and that behooves the leap of faith beyond the hard science, and that is where is belongs, in faith in your own home in your own place of worship.
If anyone is familiar with the concept of the Rainbow Bridge, that is what I would like to believe. I have no idea and do not pre-occupy myself with it and am in no rush to find out what, if anything, it is. I expect it is nothing, yet I want that concept of the Rainbow Bridge.
I would add the para-normal is something of a leap of belief, not of faith. Some things can be believed or not that have nothing to do with religion, such as evolution, climate changes, nicotine, and Terry Schiavo.
Common sense and practical pragmatic thought processes seem to have faded into essentially sociopathic tendencies.
If you have nothing better to do now, then go play with your dog or cat and realize your pet has been communicating with you, but you are not paying attention to the verbal and more visual clues.
Happy New Year.

Sermo Doc 37,

Thank you for your thoughts and your genuine concern on my behalf. Honestly, your short post touched me and is a perfect example of Man's concern for his fellow Man.

Thank You,
James

Sermo Doc 13--- If you are willing to look at the historical facts honestly I urge to to buy the book Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell(cheap on amazon) or The case for Christ by Lee Strobel. Both were sceptics until they did a lot of historical research. If you have no time for a book then all your answers can be given by "The Bible Answer Man" Hank Hannegraph by calling into his live show M-F 6-7pm ET 888-275-4265(start calling at 5:30) next week.

hey------Sermo Doc 47---I too broke away from the restraints of the catholic strain of religion------keep thinking freely.... YOU TOO CAN BE BORN AGAIN PAGAN !!!!

Sermo Doc 46-------PLEASE SEEK HELP

Ok, the computer you propose Ebola would be special by the definition you state. So what?

Every living thing has some unique quality. We all have different DNA for example. (Oops, yours isn't unique, it's identical to your twin's). Well, moving on...

So humans are special.
Cats are special.
Octopi are special.
Platypuses are very special.

So what?

Sermo Doc 48, ahh, You add further substance to my thoughts by revealing your favorite mythologies. ;-)

I would like to add the so-called Old Testament is a Christian concept editorializing and abridging the Jewish bible. The Christian bible consists of both the Old and New Testament, while the Jewish bible is the bible. Moslems have the Quran, or Koran, or other english spelling, while other eastern and western faiths have their respective versions, even the far eastern that teach even different concepts of elevated awareness, and I am far from knowledgeable on them. Cheers.

Mythologies? harumph! I do not dally in mythologies. To quote Paul Newman in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, I have vision while the rest of the world wears bifocals. I am measured, cautious, practical, pragmatic, aware, and willing to learn every day from anyone willing to teach, and to learn, too.

I spend a lot of time with energy healers in Brazil and have witnessed the presence and work of disincarnate spirits many times. I have no doubt the spirit continues after physical death.

Chili,
The "so what" is that you just admitted that I am right!!!!!!!!!!!!

I still have no idea what definition you and Sermo Doc 5 are using for special, so I guess this was just a long exercise in semantics.

Why can't the atheists, agnostics, or what ever leave God out of any argument?? It is very puzzling to me that anytime eternal life, human "specialness" is mentioned they are the first ones to drag God into the issue. I really can't understand it.

BTW there are certainly some historical accuracies in the Bible and this is another pet peeve of mine. Why are some so threatened by others beliefs that they have to completely discount ALL elements of ANY documentation that relate to that belief.

Why would you give more credence to the followers of Buddha than the followers of Christ. Buddha is a myth also, isn't it? After all Buddha was born over 500 yrs BC so why would you feel that the accounts of Buddha are more accurate than the more recent accounts of Jesus?

Yes, all living things are special but as humans we have surpassed all in our abilities, though we may not at all times use those abilities as perhaps we should. This argument has nothing to do with religion, or a billion monkeys randomly typing out the Bible and whether this confluence of abilities was random or planned makes no difference whatsoever, in fact, if random, it makes us all the more special, not less.

Clinped,

Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid!
I Sermo Doc 6 you for that is one to remember.

Remember the Alamo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




:-)

Love this post...
As we are scientists I like to think about scientific principles as they relate to this question.
ALL believe in eternity.
Either matter & energy is eternal or what made it is.
The first law of thermodynamics states that energy can not be created or destroyed.
It only changes forms.
Well what if this is only true NOW ? What if this is only true for the universe the way we observe it ?
E=MC squared tells us, if you ponder it, that we, having a mass are related to energy.
So, in the beginning, if one can even use that term here, there was either "God" or energy.
A supreme "God" could make energy = us.
And what is energy anyway ? I do not know.
No one will prove that we exist after our state of being reaches more entropy.
A "death", though I like to conceive it as another from of existence.
It is interesting to note that a belief in "God" is NOT equal to an eternal life.
They are not mutually inclusive. For one can believe, but still cease to exist.
That is a tough concept. Something coming from or going to nothing.
What does one chose to believe?
Is it really a choice?
Eternal energy or that God created it.
This is the distillation of ALL science.
Would someone PLEASE tell me where energy came from ???
Or God...
Many of you have realized that all of the KNOWN universe is governed by a force of attraction or repulsion. How did that come to be ??? Was this a good idea ?
It seems to be working well, but is not going to prove eternal life.
Everyone can think as they like.
This is not my show.
It's HIS show. I am just a collection of subatomic particles dancing around in His play.
Please enjoy the performance and pass the nachos :-)

Ebola,
I don't give credence to followers of any religion. They are all mythologies created by man.

I do not believe we are "more special" than any other form of life. I have not seen any evidence for this claim. Besides, how can something be more special? More unique? More unusual? By whose judgement?

While there may be some good lessons and stories in various religious books, that does not make them proof of god. Atheists can tell nice stories and teach good lessons too. The errors in them does argue against them being the inerrant word of some deity though.

"I've given you my definition of "special" above but will repeat it. BTW I took it from the dictionary.

Special, distinguished by unique or unusual quality.

Now please give me the courtesy of stating your definition and answering my computer question, Chili says she doesn't understand it." Sermo Doc 26

I guess the DNA of homo sapiens is not 100% the same as other creatures, though we do share a large part with others, so the human total DNA is unique though its parts may not be 100% unique.

Mankind certainly has unusual qualities as do other creatures and we have some qualities in which we excel over others and some in which we are far inferior in comparison to other creatures

So we have some things that are unique and of unusual quality to us , as do other creatures.

I think when people of faith talk about being mankind being special, they are doing it in the context of their God, not in our unique DNA and our unusual qualities.

"Why can't the atheists, agnostics, or what ever leave God out of any argument?? It is very puzzling to me that anytime eternal life, human "specialness" is mentioned they are the first ones to drag God into the issue. I really can't understand it." Sermo Doc 26

OK, if God does not exist and therefore there was no intelligent being who designed and created the Universe and if there is an afterlife, then do all living creatures on Earth have an afterlife?

It seems when people say they believe in an afterlife it is in a religious or belief in God aspect and then some will say then to leave God out of it.

If there is no God, can there be an afterlife?

Sermo Doc 5 and Chili,

I think we understand our positions and really agree on more than we disagree.

Some may call it arrogance but in my opinion we are special. That is reality, not arrogance.

Is there any other creature you would prefer to become, if given a choice?

If not then, I would postulate that you do believe that we are more special than other life forms (though I agree they are special).

"If there is no God, can there be an afterlife? "


What do you think?

I guess it depends what the definition of is is.

"I think when people of faith talk about being mankind being special, they are doing it in the context of their God, not in our unique DNA and our unusual qualities."

This is your misconception (myth) not mine.

My problem with religion: so many wars have been fought because of it.

I do not wish to argue in favor or against eternal life. I am a Christian and believe that the golden rule should be practiced ...all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them Matthew.7:12. Never should a person's belief be imposed on another. The will of others should always be respected. In this spirit email me only if interested in a Biblical explanation on how to receive eternal life. dr_Sermo Doc 51@bhhec.org

“I don't believe in God, and cannot see how a person can be a scientist and do so. At least they must suspend a scientific viewpoint for that part of their life.”

Sermo Doc 32, I respectfully disagree.

Albert Einstein said that he did not believe in a personal God but when he realized that the universe had a beginning that he could only explain by creation, said “"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

www.godandscience.org

Many famous scientists have believed in God:

www.godandscience.org

Here is a discussion about why there are more atheists amongst scientists than amongst others in the general population:

www.godandscience.org

This discussion suggests their atheism is based upon other factors than their being scientists.

For those of you who believe in eternal life through the salvation of Jesus Christ - you have NOTHING to lose in living this way. If you are wrong (which you're not) then you have a great way to live anyway.

For those of you who don't believe this - better hope you are right - because if you aren't - then eternity is a LONG time to be wrong. Is it really worth that gamble....???????

"This is your misconception (myth) not mine." Sermo Doc 26

Not all misconceptions are myths. You should not have to resort to words with negative connotations to make a point.

I believe and disbelieve in eternal life and in this I am unwavering....unless of course you disagree

A great way to live anyway????? Persecuting,maiming ,killing non believers. RELIGION is the worst plague for mankind to have evolved on this planet!

Sermo Doc 52

So are you saying that your God, the God of Abraham who is the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, for the last 2000 years, now accepts those who accept Jesus and all others who accept this God, but not Jesus, and all those who believe in a different God, no matter how they lead their life, are after death doomed for eternity.

"I believe and disbelieve in eternal life and in this I am unwavering....unless of course you disagree " Sermo Doc 53

This is my opinion and I have other opposing ones if you do not like this one.

If there is eternal life who gets the remote?

I find it interesting that a community of physicians is giving more weight to subjective, antecdotal evidence rather than using more objectivity and reason. And while Sermo Doc 11 states that there is no logical evidence for the existence of God, Olhamada and others have presented some intriguing logic to support the contrary.

God cannot be proven (so far as I know), but using logic, reason, and objective evidence (history, archeaology) one can make a case that belief in God is more rational than unbelief. The facts remain facts, but at some point we must take what we know and render a decision -- this is faith (taking an additional step beyond logic, but not blindly leaping into the abyss). jimimd stated that we cannot have this discussion on a rational basis. I would disagree, but that doesn't mean that we will arrive at the same decision.

It is also worth noting (and I am not the first to do so), that the OBJECT of faith is more important than the faith itself. Having weak faith in strong ice will protect you far more than having strong faith in thin ice. A Muslim and a Christian may have equally strong faith, but that does not make the object of the faith true. In fact, Christianity and Islam are mutually exclusive religions -- they cannot both be true. This doesn't prove that either of them is the truth, but it prevents us from lumping all faith into a category of Nonscientific Mythical Quandries.

As a side note, the assasination of Lincoln cannot be proven scientifically, because it is not a repeatable experiment. However, it can be argued from history, archaeology, and contemporary literature that it did indeed take place. Science is NOT God, science cannot prove or disprove all truth, science is limted, and scientists can have faith in God without abandoning their rational minds.

I think the common vein between the "believers" and "non-believers is "faith"..the believers have faith in their "God"; the non-believers have "Faith" in the "non-existence"of the subject of the believers. Go figure..-)
It is silly people have fought wars on this kind of stuff. Jonathan Swift tried to bring down this silliness with his humor...Did not work!

I believe in God. I believe in eternal life that is attained through faith in Jesus Christ. I believe the spirit of God is active in this world and in my life. I choose not to debate. This is a statement of my faith, I wish all of you could share it because it makes all the difference to me.

The only way an atheist could be proven wrong is if God could be proven to exist and the only way a theist could be proven wrong is if God could be proven not to exist .... I do not think either will happen. There is no doubt if one of these could prove their case, there would still be some in the other group who would not accept it.

I suppose the one advantage atheists have is that theists have so many different beliefs about God which they all say are the only correct one, where the atheists, though outnumbered, can all agree.

We have left out the agnostics who may claim they are the only ones who have it right.

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

"There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

Richard Dawkins

richarddawkins.net

Sermo Doc 29, is there any evidence that would support the existence of fairies at the bottom of the garden?

Show me evidence of fairies (even if they remain unseen). Show me the works of fairies. Teach me the history of fairies and their impact on the garden. Then, I may make a determination about whether I believe in your garden fairies.

Well, there is the sincere, deep and abiding belief of the fairy-believers--doesn't that count for something? But that's beside the point, really. The fairy-believers aren't asking you to believe in fairies; rather, they're just asking you to acknowledge that, because you can't prove fairies don't exist, the logical position to take on the subject is one of 'fairy agnosticism.'

I am a born again Christian and a deacon in a church. I believe in eternal life after death.
But let me comment about the following paragraph the OP wrote:

"Even amongst Christians who believe that salvation and eternal life are rewards for faith as opposed to works, there is an underlying appreciation of the benefits of living a righteous life and doing good deeds and the feeling that charity can overcome a multitude of sins."

Eternal life is not a reward, per se. It is God giving us back what we once had because we disobeyed Him (original sin). As such, I see it as a restoration. It cannot be by works...where would He (or we) draw the line on who and what is acceptable? If we understand that Jesus lived, was fully God and man (both), died to pay the price for OUR sins (God previously said we would surely die if we ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good vs. evil), and that His promises are true (proven as many people saw him killed and then later back alive), then we will live eternally, just as He promised.

We do good not just out of thankfulness, or to show our love for God, although these are major reasons. And we do not do good works to maintain salvation. Good is good, no matter what. But actions alone will never be enough, in and of itself. Everyone can appreciate good actions. But doing good shows LOVE..."faith without works is dead"...those works are done out of love. I never do charity to cover sin. Nothing can cover sin, and I DO sin every day! The only thing that covers sin is Jesus...my acknowledgement of who He is, what He has done, that he lives, and what He continues to do for those that understand and believe.

What I do today does not get me one step closer to God. He is either eternally far away, or right next to you. There are no other choices. What do you lose by believing? What is the option? Imagine the peace of a good and certain future for all eternity.

Believe and live.

Eternal life is not considered a blessing in all cultures. Hindus feel it is a price you pay for sinful existence! The menu is extensive, choose something and live by your "faith"

What a breath of fresh air to read the spiritual thoughts of my colleagues..Thanks and God Bless to ALL...believers and non believers!!!

Hey you guys----I just finished my lunch----and guess what---jesus appeared to me again [in my PB&J sandwich]--------I'm not fooling---Why would I lie------he said I was O.K for all eternity but the nonbelievers will burn in everlasting fire-------because jesus loves you!!

I'm not so sure non-believers want to be "blessed" by an imaginary deity.

Sermo Doc 29,

What about the fairy rings??
:-)

Chili,
Lighten up, the poster is wishing you the best.

I wish you and your family a wonderful coming year and thank you, sayaah, Sermo Doc 29, dx, Zeits, and many others on this site for being my friend and for teaching me many lessons both medical and otherwise.

I do hope I get to meet some of you guys some day.

Sermo Doc 45, you seem to be laying on some pretty thick sarcasm with a hint of condescension. I'm not saying that you have to believe in Jesus or burn in hellfire. I'm simply suggesting that you look at the non-food-appearance evidence and follow a logical and rational decision-making algorithm just like you might before you make a clinical decision.

There is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for the existence of Julius Ceasar. Both claimed to be God. You may very well determine that neither was God, or you may decide that God doesn't exist at all -- that's your decision. But I don't think that we need to belittle the topic by comparing Jesus to a garden fairy or making claims that Julius Caesar appeared in my lunch plate (and please, no salad jokes).

Well folks, if you really want to get down to it, and i mean down to the nitty gritty, I had a major revelation this year--one that may shock many of you. I realized that that old grey man sitting on the throne in the sky was my first abuser. If I didn't do things the way he wanted me to, he could do what ever he wanted with me. It really didn't matter what my intentions were. The Man in the Bible is a vengeful, vindictive one. And from that day onward, I decided I could not believe in any male oriented religion, in any story written by white men or their likes.

Thank you Ebola for your kind expression of thanks and best wishes.

I wish the same for you and appreciate you're contributions to the discussion.

I am both a believer in and a follower of Christ (yes, you can be one and not the other!) on both experiential and logical grounds, and agree with the excellent comments made by Sermo Doc 9, among others. My father (still living) and grandfather (deceased), both Christians as well, have both had near-death experiences that gave them glimpses of a very real afterlife. These experiences obviously cannot be scientifically proven but they were very real to them, and helpful to them and to me as well. I don't know the physiologic basis behind them, although I can certainly make an informed guess, but the physiologic cause matters less to me than the fact that they both found them helpful in facing life-threatening situations, and in carrying on with their lives afterwards. All bodily perception is internal anyway, so what does it matter whether hypotension or altered brain chemistry is the cause? The external reality of God, who is unconstrained by the physical "laws" we observe is the same regardless of how we experience Him.

Scientific training is an excellent tool in understanding the world we live in and in our work. For spiritual matters - not so good, and it can even be a hindrance if one insists that spiritual matters must be subject to scientific proof. Can't really be done, although there are some interesting attempts in the literature. My own belief is based on my daily relationship with a very real God who has forgiven my sins and continues to do so through the work of Jesus.

For any who are genuinely interested in logical thinking about spiritual matters, I would refer you to excellent works by Dallas Willard and C.S. Lewis, among others.

Sermo Doc 26

Hope you and your family have a good New Year and a great 2010.

Some of these discussions show the truism: I can easily take care of my enemies, but (fill in the appropriate word or phrase .... either a Deity of your choice or "my strength of character" or whatever else you want, real, imaginary ....like Harvey the imaginary rabbit ... or anything mythic) help me with my friends.

Besides, this has been a pleasant change from health care, Obama, Pelosi, Reid, et al.

p.s. death sucks.....

That is exactly why this discussion doesn't belong on SERMO----You cannot discuss this topic with rational thought------either you believe in magic---or you don't---but it is beyond our capacity to sort this all out-----unfortunately more harm has been done to others in the name of one god or another---- that's why I find this discussion so problematic I believe any religion [beliefs] perpetuates discontent among peoples .Even those that say they are based on love will maim and torture non believers

for those who DO belieive in eternal life thru the salvation of JC, and find that you are wrong--you are going to be sorely disappointed.

for those who do not, but find there is eternal life--you will be pleasantly surprised.

"Do You Believe In Eternal Life? "
As an atheist in college, I did not. I saw all religion as fear-based motivation for doing good, and quite pathetic. In fact, I sat down to read the Bible in order to prove it wrong and foolish, and "save" Christians from their foolish fears of hell, the devil, and of God.
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But then, God revealed Himself to me. So, what can I say? It is no longer "faith", but knowing. And that is what eternal life is!
"And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." -John 17:3
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Even Saul mercilessly persecuted Jews who followed and believed that Jesus was the Messiah. Messiah meaning "Anointed One"...similar to "Christ" (the Greek version). Saul dragged Jews out of their houses to have them stoned to death for such "blasphemy". But then, Jesus appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus...and then what could he say? Later, he took on the name "Paul" and ended up writing a majority of the New Testament!

I find it fascinating that God does not personally reveal Himself to absolutely everybody...in a personal and direct revelation (though, none are without excuse per Romans, chapter 1). Even many Pharisees and Saducees (the Jewish leaders during the time of Jesus) asked for and demanded some proof and/or sign that Jesus was the Messiah. But Jesus told them that no sign shall be given excepting the symbolic sign of Jonah, stating that just as Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of a great fish, the Son of Man would spend three days in the belly of the earth and then rise. And, of course, Jesus did just that.

Even more fascinating is that Jesus healed men born blind instantaneously without any surgery or medicine. I'd like to see an ophtho do that, now! He also healed a woman with a bleeding problem for years, where no physician could help her. She spent all of her money on physicians that couldn't help her...so she continued to have horrible bleeding...making her continuously "unclean" in her society. But, just by touching the garment of Jesus, her faith healed her completely. I'd like to see a OBGYN or Hematologist do that today! What a joke!

He walked on water, turned water into wine, and multiplied a few fish and bread in order to feed thousands...and this in front of THOUSANDS of people...yet, these people still had the audacity to go up to Jesus and demand a sign or miracle from Him? What a joke!

And atheistic physicians of today are NO different...demanding signs and miracles in order to believe.

Jesus said, "If you would believe, then you would see."
But all of you demand to see first...in order to believe!

You are caught behind the 8-ball and will never see the truth...unless He opens your eyes.

And then there is the case of Thomas, who doubted until he saw. And, by God's grace, Jesus appeared to Thomas and said, "Touch here...and see...stop doubting and believe!" And guess what? Thomas no longer doubted, but even addressed Jesus as God, Himself!

Salvation is by grace along through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone for the glory of God alone.

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Seriously, Sermo Doc 28, learn to not yell in all caps. Those of us who aren't religious don't like being yelled at by those who are. It reminds me of being on the locked-down psych ward in med school.

Sayaah, I'm totally with you.

Olhamada, there are explanations other than god. You just don't like them. Not having a neat answer *is* an answer, and it is *not* god.

Evolution totally "cuts it." Don't you people understand science?

If the strongest, healthiest man and woman were Adam and Eve, let me remind you he's missing a rib (therefore not normal) and since she's made from him, she'd genetically be a man (XY). That make no sense whatsoever, given they had children, which would be impossible, unless you have found an organism that participates in male parthogensis. And if they were both XY, that would make their partnership a gay partnership. Suck on that fact. You may like science a little better than that snarl.

'Moses was high on hallucinogenic drug when he received Ten Commandments,' claims top academic

When Moses received the Ten Commandments from God, he was summoned right to the top of Mount Sinai.

But the man who led the Children of Israel to safety may have been even higher at the time, if an Israeli academic is to be believed.

Psychology professor Benny Shanon says it was likely Moses was hallucinating under the influence of a mind-altering drug at the time of his biblical achievements.

Taking the tablets: Professor Benny Shanon says it was likely Moses (here portrayed by Charlton Heston) was hallucinating when he received the Ten Commandments

To back up his theory, Professor Shanon says the acacia tree, frequently mentioned in the Bible, contains one of the most psychedelic substances known to man.

The professor, who came up with his theory after experiencing firsthand the effects of a hallucinogenic brew used in religious rituals in Brazil, said the story of Moses and the burning bush also had the hallmarks of a psychedelic experience.

The account in the Book of Exodus of the bush's ability to burn without being "consumed" is generally attributed to the presence and power of God.

High of the beholder? Moses and the burning bush. The acacia tree, frequently mentioned in the Bible, contains one of the most psychedelic substances known to man

But to the Hebrew University of Jerusalem's Professor Shanon, who freely admits to having experimented with mind-bending substance "about 160 times in various locales in contexts", it is evidence of the power of drugs.

Writing in the journal Time And Mind, the professor said the telltale signs of drug-induced visions included a loss of sense of time, seeing bright lights or fire, the blurring of the senses and profound religious and spiritual feelings.

"I propose that this event involved no change in the real world, having nothing to do with either the bush or the fire," he said.

"Rather, it is reflected in the radical alteration in the state of consciousness of the beholder - that is, Moses.

"Moses's sense of time changed and an actual moment in physical time was subjectively perceived as an eternity...enough time for the bush in front of him to be burnt and consumed.

"But in the external physical domain, only a fraction of a second had elapsed, hence no actual change in the bush was perceived."

According to the professor, Moses was not alone in dabbling with drugs, with the assembled Children of Israel likely to have been in "an altered state of awareness" when Moses brought the Ten Commandments down from Mount Sinai.

Professor Shanon told Israeli radio: "As far as Moses on Mount Sinai is concerned, it was either a supernatural cosmic event, which I don't believe, or a legend, which I don't believe either, or finally, and probable, an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics."

Even a description of Moses with "shining skin" is seen as a reference to the euphoric, sweat-inducing effects associated with drug use.

He concludes: "Admittedly, the smoking gun is not available to us.

However, so many clues present themselves, which, like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, seem to cohere into a intriguing, unified whole.

"I leave it to the reader to pass his or her judgment."

Some judgments, however, were less than kind.

Orthodox rabbi Yuval Sherlow stressed that the Bible was trying to convey "very profound" events.

Mike Judge, of the Christian Institute, said: "For people who believe in such a God, it is perfectly rational for Him to be acting in a supernatural way."

www.dailymail.co.uk

Uh, who knows what Moses felt?
My parents are atheists, and my mother's family was Buddhist, and dad's Methodist. I don't like the way my father taunts people who have religious beliefs. I think it is crass and rude. Talk about your opinions, but really, the taunts are childish.

I grew up atheist, but have developed a sense of a higher being as I grew up and went to friends' churches. I don't think God is an old man sitting in the sky.
There have been too many things that have happened in my life and others' that make me think there is more out there.
As for eternal life, my feelings are hazy. I'd like to think it's true. It's nice to see what other people believe.

Well...for any truly interested skeptics (seek, and you shall find):

There is the atheist philosopher turned Christian, C.S. Lewis, who wrote many great reads. Consider "Mere Christianity":
www.amazon.com

There is the atheist Lawyer turned Christian, Joshua McDowell, who wrote many great reads. Consider "More Than a Carpenter":
www.amazon.com

There is the atheist Journalist turned Christian, Lee Strobel, who wrote many great reads. Consider, "The Case For A Creator":
www.amazon.com
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Of course, then there is the atheist chemical engineer and now medical doctor turned Christian (your truly), who recommends reading the Gospel of John in this:
www.amazon.com

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Or, for those with short attention spans, consider this:
www.familychristianmovies.com

What evidence do we have that Moses even existed? Or Noah? Or Abraham? Or David? Or Jonah?

The accounts of Jesus' miracles didn't exist until many years after his death. Where is the testimony of the THOUSANDS of people fed by the loaves and fishes?

If you personally choose to believe in this particular mythology, fine. However, please do not state it as fact unless you have the facts to back it up.

I am truly stunned that a group of physicians could be so captivated by magical stories! Is this how you practice medicine? Do you tell your patients that the only way their soul will be saved is through Jesus? Why do you bother with surgery, or medicines or tests? Couldn't you just ask for the answers to be revealed? Why are your patients any less deserving of a miracle cure? If your god is so omnipotent and omniscient and loving why does so much horrible crap happen? Please don't trot out the "free will" argument. I fail to see how the deaths of millions of people in natural disasters is because of some individual's exercise of free will.

= = =
"Do you tell your patients that the only way their soul will be saved is through Jesus?"

Would you love someone else enough to warn them of impending doom if you were in the position to be able to do so in order to save their life?

For instance, if a child started to run out into traffic, would you speak out to warn them? Or even grab them, yourself, and take them to the safety of their parents, who lagged behind?

Or do you tell your patients of a medicine or surgery that you know of that will save their life?

I dare say it would be malpractice if you didn't!

= = =

"Why do you bother with surgery, or medicines or tests?"
God very rarely heals miraculously. And God has provided you and I with knowledge, surgical skills, medicines (which come from His creation, by the way), and tests to also ameliorate the impact of disease and illness.

God can and does also provide sustenance for our very lives, but I still eat food, too.
Go figure.
:)

= = =

"Couldn't you just ask for the answers to be revealed?"
We pray continuously - for ourselves, our patients, our families, our friends, and even our enemies. For blessing, healing, and eternal salvation.

= = =

"Why are your patients any less deserving of a miracle cure?"
You miss the Gospel completely, my friend. They are no more deserving than you, me, or any of us. None of us are deserving. That is why it is said that salvation is by grace alone. Grace is undeserved favor. And God glorifies His grace in the salvation of people. That is what the "Gospel" is.

Gospel means "good news", and it is the good news that although we are NOT deserving of eternal life (and fully deserve hell), God freely and graciously gives eternal life to all who believe in Jesus Christ.

= = =

"If your god is so omnipotent and omniscient and loving why does so much horrible crap happen?"
Sounds like the Epicurus argument.
As if the problem of evil (theodicy) is going to satisfactorily answered here in Sermo.
Try the authors and books I recommended above, who address and answer this question (and others) in their thick books (C.S. Lewis, in particular).

Briefly, God is omnipotent and omniscient. I will not speak of "free will", but I will pointedly declare the truth: God decreed the fall of this world and of mankind in order to bring glory to His grace, mercy, and love through the redeeming work of His Son.

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Sermo Doc 13 -

Theological facts/truths/reasoning are different from scientific facts/truths/reasoning.

Not everyone who believes in a God believes on one who micro-, or even macro-, manages what happens to to them and others .... Deism

Some scientists and theologists who strongly belief in their own isms and can accept the other ism and some can view them as different parts of their own life.

The Bible is the Truth - there is eternal life for those who believe and accepts the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm religion free and TV free... it's the most liberating feeling in the world. I wish I had done both 20 years ago!

Chili,

Or Buddha or Lao-Tse. Why just pick on the Christians.

Actually, whether you believe in Christianity, Buddhism, Mohammad, Taoism, Judaism, or other religions. Even if you feel that all religions are artificially created by Man there is much evidence that many of these historical figures existed and religions were built around them. Just a cursory check of the internet will give you more than enough references that some of these figures existed.

If you are going to argue for the nonexistence of historical persons associated with religions you need to be discussing it with a religious scholar not a group of physicians.

The argument that if there was a God he would not allow crap to happen is a straw man argument that has been made and refuted ad infinitum, so if you do consult with a religious scholar for the answers to your questions don't make it easy on him by throwing this softball at him.
BTW, not all religious scholars are "believers", though there are many objective scholars, who are believers and will give you honest answers to your questions.

Honestly, and you know I respect your opinion, your reasoning shows an extremely superficial understanding of religion and its place in society.

"The Bible is the Truth.."

Do you mean every word and even the conflicting passages are true?

Is one version truer than the others?

I will pointedly declare the truth: God decreed the fall of this world and of mankind in order to bring glory to His grace, mercy, and love through the redeeming work of His Son.

So, this omnipotent, omniscient being had to decree men to fall to then bring glory to himself by killing his son?

Wow, just wow. The complete nonsensical nature of that statement is breathtaking. And you manage to wrap it in terms of love and mercy too. And this particular "truth" was revealed directly to you?

That kind of thinking is typically regarded as delusional.

You know that what follows "you know I respect your opinion" and "in all due respect" is usually not favorable or complimentary ;-)

Ebola,

I'm not just picking on the Christians. ALL religions are man made and suffer from serious questions about the veracity of their claims. I'm not the one who has claimed that a certain book is the "truth"and the word of a certain deity. I have not claimed the veracity of the existence of any historical figure associated with a religion. Some of them may indeed have existed, but their existence does not prove their magical thinking is true.

When I deal with the world outside of my head, I try to rely on demonstrable proofs. I expect that information published in medical journals and texts has some factual basis and is not the hopes and wishes and prayers of the author. Magical thinking has no place in the practice of medicine.

Alright wonposet..I am dying to know why you posted this question on the eve of slaughter of "medicine as we know it."

BTW I hope you all saw NOVA program on evolution today. It was fascinating and so educational. It is comign to an end soon. My 9 year old is sitting around watching this program spellbound!

Chili, you mentioned that Jesus deeds were written many years after his death which is just not true. In fact, Paul's letters were written in the 50s & 60s (just 20 years after Jesus death - this would be akin to a book released today addressing the presidency of Ronald Reagan with plenty of contemporary witnesses still around to vouch for the truth or rebut any fallacy). The gospels of Matthew, Mark, & Luke were written between the 50s and the 70s with John coming in a little later (90s). And while the canon was not made official until the 4th century AD, it was widely accepted within 100 yrs of Jesus ministry.

And while the gospels are certainly biased, Luke (also a physician) stands out as one of the greatest historians of antiquity. His descriptions of politics and geography and factual events are astonishingly accurate in their detail and content. Indeed, he opens his gospel with a pledge to give an accurate and reliable account based on carefully investigation and interviews with eyewitnesses. Peter relies on the eyewitness accounts of non-believers when he addresses them in Acts chapter 2 and when miracles are performed in Acts chapter 3 which couldn't be denied by nonbelieving witnesses. And Paul (in 2 Corinthians 15) states that the resurrected Christ, "appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep." In other words, they were teaching contemporary history and couldn't get away with blatant lies within a region full of fact-checkers.

The New Testament has the strongest bibliographic pedigree of any ancient text with over 25,000 existing manuscripts with text fragments dating within 100 yrs of the original and near complete manuscripts dating to the 3rd and 4th centuries. Compare this to the second best attested manuscript of antiquity - Homer's Iliad with 643 manuscripts the earliest of which dates over 1000 years after the original text. Outside of the eyewitness accounts of the early church ministers and historians, we also have the testimony to Jesus ministry of Roman, Greek, & Jewish historians of the 1st & 2nd centuries (Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny, Seutonius, & Lucian). And, while archaeology cannot prove history, the accuracy of Biblical Archeology certainly lends credibility to its authority.

None of this is meant to "convince" you that God exists. But, I hope that you would appreciate that we are not discussing garden fairies, magic, or mythology. Any student of mythology would be quick to point out the vast differences between classical mythology and the historicity of the early church. Indeed, if I may read between the lines a little bit, it seems as though many aetheists, agnostics, and nonbelievers seem to have more trouble with the way God is managing things, than they do with His actual existence.

Sermo Doc 5, when you refer to "conflicting passages" of the Bible, are you referring to a specific conflict that you are having trouble reconciling, or are you simply repeating someone who once told you that there are conflicting passages? If the former, I would love to delve into some of that, if you're interested.....

Yes, Yes, Yes...I definitely believe that we have an awareness of eternity because God has set eternity in the heart of man, just as the scriptures declare.

Sermo Doc 60 - "Evolution totally "cuts it." Don't you people understand science?" - Yes. Precisely why I don't believe in evolution. It makes no sense and takes much greater faith (or ignorance as some of you have put it) to believe that rather than in a Creator. Adaptation, genetic engineering, etc... yes. Trans-species migration - are you kidding me? What happens when you remove manmade pressures in reproduction of plants and animals? They revert to wild-type - of their same kind.

Chilicat - "What evidence do we have that Moses even existed? Or Noah? Or Abraham? Or David? Or Jonah?" The same evidence we have that any other historical figure lived. Aristotle, Martin Luther, Socrates, Abraham Lincoln, Hitler. How do you have proof? Did you personally meet any of them? How do you know? History. Oral and written tradition.

Re Moses - 3M Jews being led out of captivity in Egypt. A myth? Tell that to the millions who experienced it and recorded it. Same goes for the others you question.

My concept of immortality relates to my DNA being propagated down the river of time in my progeny.

That's all folks!

Sermo Doc 5,

>You know that what follows "you know I respect your opinion" and "in all due respect" is usually not favorable or complimentary ;-)<

I disagree, and I think that in a forum such as this it is sometimes necessary to try to convey that one is not trying to be combative or condescending. If we were sitting in your living room most likely our intentions would be clear but misunderstandings can result when the written word is read with no evidence of the intent of the poster.

I do think that the evidence of the existence of many historical figures can not be proved but can be inferred by the same method we use to judge other documents of the period. I'm speaking of any historical figure. Many times if they are mentioned in documents either contemporary or not they may meet the criteria of proof used to examine these documents and their contents.

In any case, I am not a religious scholar but, like you, use some of the faculties that make we humans special to attempt to come to a logical conclusion. :-)

Thus far, I have heard no disagreement from the dolphins, or the squirrels. I vow to those listening that I will forgo my morning sausage and egg biscuit if the pigs are picketing McDonalds.

Xrayagniodoc- right on!

As physicians & erstwhile scientists, we all have needed to accept that there are certain absolutes. For most of mankind's history, we have understood and explained them incorrectly (or incompletely, if you prefer). However, we continue to learn, refine, and improve our understanding.
Consider, for the sake of argument, that there is a component of our individual beings I will call a spirit. The spirit comprises our personalities/identities, and, when combined in just the right way w/ the corresponding physical body, gives it life. Consider that the spirit has senses, strengths, weaknesses, and powers (just like the physical body) which can, through proper training, nutrition, and exercise, be improved, refined, and strengthened (or weakened through neglect of same).
Sermo Doc 22 described very simply but elegantly how his spirit received a communication (through spiritual media, not physical) that transmitted KNOWLEDGE to his consciousness. Similarly, I can TESTIFY to you how great apple pie (or chocolate, or matza ball soup, etc., etc.) taste, but if you choose to remain skeptical and deny the existence of taste buds, then you will never know. You can even soundly convince yourself that I "created" taste in my mind to delude myself that life's experience is better or more significant than it really is. Your skepticism makes me sad, but does not deprive me of the pleasure of taste; it only deprives you.
I KNOW there is life eternally; our souls are eternal. Our spirits give life to our bodies in mortality to gain experience only a body can provide. Some make poor choices and have bad outcomes. Some have bad outcomes but choose to learn good lessons available from the experiences. When the body becomes damaged or worn to the point that it is no longer a suitable habitation for the spirit, we die. The spirit (who we are and have become) lives on and will take up the body in a refined and perfected form at a future time (the Biblical word for this is resurrection -- we receive it through the grace of Christ). The fact that there are many things about God and eternity that I do not know, doesn't keep me from accepting the things that I already DO know.

Sermo Doc 54 - Contradictions?

www.infidels.org

www.infidels.org

The url gets cut off when I try to post it. Hmmm. Wonder what etherial power is at work here. It should read:

www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html

Sermo Doc 18 - I have experienced what you are referring to.

I'm not sure where it fits in with an afterlife.

Evolution keeps coming up. Ok. So there was this primordial "soup" with all sorts of nucleic acids, lipids, and carbohydrates - all in proper proportions with no impurities to mess things up. Somehow, this "soup" attracted electrical current that travelled through it and arranged all these ingredients into a one celled organism that was able to sustain life on its own for 3 or 4 billion years, give or take a few million - and in hostile conditions, mind you. Then this prokaryotic "bacterium" for lack of a better term, developed a nucleus, became a eukaryote, and hung out for another few billion years. Then it developed into algae, fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, avians, etc... and finally man.

You REALLY believe that stuff? And you call creationists uneducated? Wow.

I'm going to bed. I hope I don't wake up with 3 legs.

Okay Sermo Doc 42, I'm not sure if you wanted me to address every item mentioned in that website, so I'll ask again if there is any particular sticking point for you (or sayaah). As for a few of the issues, the author of the site has a gross misunderstanding of prophecy (not knowing that most prophecy had an immediate component, a Messianic component, and an end-times component), and the author spouts a lot of conjecture and doesn't seem to understand the difference between variance in accounts and irreconcilable conflict. But, just to bite off a few of the "contradictions:"

How could Jesus celebrate the Passover feast and be crucified on the first day of Passover? Here, the answer is simple - the Jewish "day" runs from sunset to sunset, so the first Passover meal was on Thursday evening, Jesus was arrested and crucified on Thursday evening & Friday morning, and the body was removed for burial before the Passover Sabbath (at sunset on Friday). Hence, all these events occurred on the "first day."

Dating of Jesus birth... yes the governorship of Quirinius occurred after Herod's death, however, Luke doesn't call Quirinius a governor, but rather a "procurator," a position that he held prior to his governorship and a position that would have put him as an overseer of the census (likely 4 BC). Of course in most English translations we get the word "governor."

Variance in geneology between Matthew and Luke... I don't believe there is any difference here. Matthew is Jewish and therefore uses the Hebrew names. Luke is a Gentile and uses the Greek forms. This is no more significant than the difference between John and Juan.

Concerning John the Baptist... yes, he doubted. Don't we all? Doubt is not contradiction, John just needed some reassurance that his efforts (and pending death) were not in vain.

And concerning "Matthew's big blunder:" the author suggests that Jesus rode into town sitting on two different animals at the same time because the text refers to a donkey and its colt and then says that he "sat on them." Actually, the author has confused the antecedents - "them" refers to the coats that were laid on the animals. After several readings, I'm still not sure whether he was riding on the donkey or the donkey's colt, but this doesn't shatter my faith, and I don't think it qualifies as a "big blunder."

wonposet
The early Catholic Church did not "invent" the doctrine of purgatory, doctrines are defined, not invented. This concept although not specifically called purgatory has biblical origins and was taught by the Apostles. This is intellegently explained by John Henry Newman in his classic book "An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine" This book has been required reading in literature courses in several secular Universities, not because of its spritulal content but because of its excellence of English prose

"Do You Believe In Eternal Life?"

Another interesting thing about this question, is that most immediately think of life after death. But "eternal life" is a present possession, in Christ.

It is also called "abundant life" or "life to the full" in the Bible (John 10:10); that is a life full of the Holy Spirit, including the fruit of the Holy Spirit, "love, joy, peace..." (Gal 5:22).

It is that which all humans long for deep within their souls...the yearning that money, success, power, fame, etc. never fills.

As it is written:
"And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life." - 1 John 5:11-13

Whoever has the Son *has* life.
Whoever does not have the Son of God *does not have* life.

Clearly, we are not talking about simply being alive. For even those who do "not have the Son of God" are alive. But they do not have "life", obviously referring to "eternal life".

The line that follows makes it unarguable, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."

This is also why Jesus said of believers, "the kingdom of God is within you".
-Luke 17:21

And of course, many who profess to be Christians do NOT have eternal life. This is why the church seems to be so filled with "unChristian" Christians, as spoken about in this book:
www.amazon.com

Jesus speaks many times of such people, often calling them hypocrites. Here, He speaks about them:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven...I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
-Matthew 7:21-23

He ties "eternal life" with "knowing Him"

And, in John 17:3, He directly states:
"And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent"

So, eternal life is to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom God sent. It is the present possession of believers by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

= = =
As I said in an earlier post, I was an atheist in 1995, and I sat down to read the Bible in order to prove it wrong in order to "save" Christians from their foolish fears of hell and God.

But I testify to the truth of what I now speak. God revealed Himself to me. Not because I was righteous or holy, not because I deserved it, and not because of my good deeds!

But simply because of His grace, He revealed Himself to me. And now I know Him. I'd be lying if I said I didn't.

-

.

Sermo Doc 54 -

I will pass on a Biblical discussion but there are inconsistencies in the Bible .... I can try to find some sites that will have them and the discussions that ensued The fact that there are discussions and disagreements about passages in the Bible means that both versions cannot be true, so which is the correct interpretation?

Also, is everything true .... the story of creation and Adam and Eve and everything else?

Sermo Doc 9 -

So what is your version of the creation of Earth and life on Earth?

Was man created de novo?

"As it is written: ....."

Hmmm .... some seem to be quoting the Bible to prove what is in the Bible is true

"I will pass on a Biblical discussion but there are inconsistencies in the Bible"

The problem with statements like this is that in the same breath, you make a false claim but refuse to discuss it.

"Hmmm .... some seem to be quoting the Bible to prove what is in the Bible is true"

When I said that, I was proving what Christianity teaches by quoting the Bible. I was not proving the veracity of the Bible, itself. I was proving that the Bible teaches that eternal life is a present possession...not just a future concept, such as heaven.

You seem to just be repeating what argumentative atheists always say, but not really saying them in an appropriate context.

Now then, if I had said that the Bible was true...and then quoted the Bible to prove it, then you would have made a logical argument. As it is, well...

Sermo Doc 59 -

Are you saying there are not differences of opinions about passages in the Bible and that there is only one interpretation?

Is the Bible true?

It seems that Jews do not believe in Hell, and neither do many religions. This makes life and death less worrisome. Also, when someone "converts" to be married, does anybody really believe that the conversion is real? I don't have too much trouble believing in God, but it's the details called "religion" that man injects into it that seem to cause all the problems. Wasn't there a trial before the Spanish theological inquisition debating whether or not the native Indians in California had souls? I seem to recall reading the details in a book. If the Indians had souls, as one Spanish priest claimed, then it would be a sin to make slaves of them. I don't recall the ending.

The advantage of polytheism is that it solves the problem "Why does God permit evil to exist?". In the Greek and Roman religions, no one believed in evil or Satan or a Hell of punishment. In fact the gods in those two religions as well as the American Indians and the Vikings seemed to notice us only to play games, or to choose sides in the Trojan War.
Every culture has its own answer to the question:" what is man striving for?".

Dear Sermo Doc 5 - Does this mean you are conceding the point, and were incorrect in your "logic" and were falsely accusing me of "quoting the Bible to prove what is in the Bible is true"?

Wow, Wonposet, you really struck a chord. Look at how long this thread is! I do find it interesting that in every culture, in every part of the world, one can find some belief in a higher being and an afterlife in some form. Some would call this human frailty but I wonder if it is part of being human.

A few months ago i tried to lead a scholarly book discussion on Viktor
Frankl's book "Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning" where the overlap of these issues with Medicine is discussed. This issue is discussed ar lenthgh for each group of people from aethists to full on believers. Perhaps people might feel ready to commit to such a discussion now.

One major misconception most have about Christianity (as I did when I was an atheist), is the underlying thought:
"Well, it doesn't really matter one way or another, because I live the best life I can live, and I have a clean conscious, and so even if God exists, He should be a loving God that accepts me for who I am."

I certainly use to think this, and quite frankly saw myself as more "righteous", or "holy", or "good" (if you will) than all the professing Christians I knew at the time, which I saw most as nothing more than hypocrites.

So as an atheist, I figured that if those Christians were good enough to go to Heaven, then I surely was!

There is a very crucial mistake in this line of thought, though...
No one is righteous. Not one.
That is, no one is "good enough" to go to heaven.
The demands of God are too high to attain to, and no one can.
Jesus Himself said that we must be perfect, as God is perfect.
The Bible states in multiple places that we must be holy, as God is holy.
James tells us that if we even stumble in one little point, then we are guilty of breaking all of the law. (James 2:10) And he also states what we all already know; namely, that we all stumble.

You read the sermon on the mount in Matthew, chapters 5-7, and anyone is humbled by the proclamation of holiness that Jesus clearly sets out!

Jesus states that if you even lust after another person, that you are guilty of adultery of the heart. If you are angry with another, you are guilty of murder in the heart. Etc...

No one can stand before God and say, "I am holy, as you are holy God. I am perfect, as you are perfect God!"

Are you perfect? (If you even entertain the thought that you are, then your pride and arrogance are your downfall)

So, the bottom-line is that in the sight of God, every single one of us is a "sinner" fully deserving of hell. So you can't bank on "being better than most"...or bank on "well, I am a pretty good person, so surely God will grant me access to heaven, no matter what". You can't even bank on God being merciful to you, because if God simply overlooked your sins, then He would be guilty of being unjust!

So, the bigger question that begs is:
Does this mean all of us are doomed to hell?

At first, it would seem as such. But that is where the "good news" comes in (i.e. the Gospel). Namely:

The word became flesh and dwelt among us. He lived the perfect, holy life, one that satisfied the full demands of the law. Then, He willingly laid down His life as a sacrifice for the sins of the world. And through faith in Him, there is an imputation of our sins to Him on the cross (leading to His just death on the cross) and an imputation of His righteousness to us. That is, though we are not righteous in and of ourselves, we are counted righteous by God through faith in Jesus Christ. It is an "alien righteousness" that gains us access into Heaven - the very righteousness of Christ Himself reckoned to us.

This is how God can remain just and still allow a sinner into heaven. He is just because the penalty of our sin was paid by Jesus, who died a horrific death on the cross.

It is a free gift, and God turns no one away. All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. And there is no other name by which we can be saved. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life - and no one comes unto the Father except by Him.
-

So, that is the big kink in the whole, "who cares?" argument.

Outside of Christ, it is as if you are heading down a river to a waterfall that will lead to your inevitable death. Christians, on the bank of the river, hold out a Branch for you to grab, to be brought to safety.

And even now, the Branch is being held out to you...

If a believer wants to convert to the right religion at convenient times to ensure arrival at the right gates at departure....the minefield is more complex than choosing a medicare carrier!( not medicare career)...

Sermo Doc 5,

Is Einstein's theory of general relativity true?
Is Quantum Physics true?

Since they are mutually contradictory (by your reasoning) they can't both be true.

Which one is true?

"So what is your version of the creation of Earth and life on Earth?

Was man created de novo?" - Sermo Doc 5

Sermo Doc 5, "my version" is found in Genesis 1 - 3. I believe in a Creator that spoke the universe into existence, created man "de novo" in His own image, and "breathed" life in to him. I believe this "breath of life" is blood. In fact, Leviticus tells us that life is in the blood, and "Adam" means "Blood of God", or "God's blood". ("A" - prefix for God in Hebrew, "dam" - means blood in Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic).

God gave man dominion over the earth. Man gave it up. God bought it back. Man's blood was tarnished with evil (sin). A "second Adam" was provided to "renew" (purify) the blood line and pay the debt of sin for all who accept this free gift. That's the entire Gospel in a nutshell.

IT WOULD CERTAINLY SEEM THAT THE NUMBER OF RESPONSES TO THIS TOPIC HAS EXCEEDED ANY OTHER "SCIENTIFIC" TOPIC IN MY MEMORY OF THIS SITE. This would indicate at the very least, an avid fascination for the subject in our particular area of expertise, medicine..

Pascal's Wager , referred to above, would point to a resolution of this quandary:
A.) If you live your life as if there is a God and a life hereafter,
1.)and you are correct , you WIN BIG
2.)and you are incorrect , you lose nothing
B.) whereas, if you live your life as if there were no God or a life hereafter,
1.) and you are correct, you win nothing
2.) and you are incorrect, you LOSE BIG
.
Gentlemen , Place your bets,the wheel is spinning, and time is running out.

For me, Sermo Doc 54, the basis of what I believe is faith rather than scientific evidence, whether it be subjective or objective.
Though Einstein did not believe in a personal God, he concluded that he was wrong when he believed the universe had no beginning and admitted existence of a beginning supported creation.
I awakened last night at 3 AM and saw my cat, Sylvester, who had died many years ago. Of course, I don't believe Sylvester was in the room. She is dead. Her body is likely decomposing in a coffin in my back yard. But I saw Sylvester.
Probably my mind saw a shadow in a place where I formerly would have expected to see Sylvester and completed the picture. This may have been like seeing a mirage in the desert or seeing a person in the distance on a highway and seeing that person become a signpost or a bush as it gets closer.
Sometimes we get signals from the dead, and these signals have the potential to give us faith in an afterlife.
I loved my Uncle Lou more than anyone in the world. Born in London, England, he saw his aunts die of tuberculosis and took a long journey across the Ocean with his mother to find his father in the wilds of Ontario, Canada. He played football for Upper Canada College in the days before the forward pass, and attended medical school at the Faculty of Medicine of the University of Toronto long enough to become a pharmacist and ran a small drug store and soda fountain in Brooklyn until he retired. He had a vast general knowledge and shared it with me as I grew up.
When Uncle Lou became old, he could no longer walk or control his urine. From his hospital bed he recited some lines from the Merchant of Venice:

GRATIANO
You look not well, Signior Antonio;
You have too much respect upon the world:
They lose it that do buy it with much care:
Believe me, you are marvellously changed.

ANTONIO
I hold the world but as the world, Gratiano;
A stage where every man must play a part,
And mine a sad one.

GRATIANO
Let me play the fool:
With mirth and laughter let old wrinkles come,
And let my liver rather heat with wine
Than my heart cool with mortifying groans.
Why should a man, whose blood is warm within,
Sit like his grandsire cut in alabaster?

How well my dear uncle understood his condition! He died shortly thereafter but held onto life until his children had arrived.

I helped my Aunt Faye empty their apartment. We found little of material value and kept books, photographs, pictures, and memorabilia from their school days. I returned the next day to make sure we had left nothing behind. On the shelf of a closet, I found wrapped in a 1913 newspaper a copy of The Merchant of Venice. Likely my Uncle had not looked at it since 1913. On the back cover he had written, "Mon oncle n'est plus ici." (My uncle is no longer here).

I flipped through the book, and he had highlighted the passage he recited from memory on his deathbed.

Some may call finding this book a coincidence. I call it a signal from my uncle from the hereafter.

Joel Rothschild described similar signals in his book, Signals: An Inspiring Story of Life After Life. This book is the extraordinary story of two friends, both living with AIDS, who made a pact: whoever died first would try to contact the other. Joel, the more skeptical of the two survived and described the experiences that gave him faith in an afterlife.

I will continue this discussion after seeing my next patient.

Permit a gentle agnostic's response.
1. The current theory on the universe's origin which best fits observation involves a quantum fluctuation in a vacuum--which is a very busy place, rather than dead emptiness--followed by a rapid inflation, essentially something from nothing.
2. The elements required for life were synthesized in supernovae. We are, indeed, made of stardust.
3. Assuming that most water molecules so remain, and most nitrogen and oxygen atoms so remain, it's easy to estimate that millions of them, for every breath you take, every glass drunk, every plate of food consumed, passed through Leonardo da Vinci, Torquemada, Socrates or any given Tyrannosaurus rex.
4. The complexity of Earth's biosphere, by its very existence, places limits on fundamental constants governing the Universe as a whole, on the largest and smallest scales--the (weak) anthropic cosmological principle.

The universe is one, and we are of it and with it. Look at anything in it, and the more deeply you look, you're led to everything.

To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.

William Blake

Sermo Doc 59 -

I may have misread your comments and thought they were like what so many others do in using the Bible to prove the Bible.

So is the Bible true ..... did every event described actually happen as described .... is every passage true ..... is there universal agreement on the interpretation of evey passage or some disagreement.

I know of nothing where there is universal agreement and where there is, next year we will be "proven" wrong.

Sermo Doc 26

Yes Einstein's Theory of Relativity and Quantum Physics do seem to have conflicts. Perhaps with time, we will learn more and understand it. Science does tend to look forward and old theories die, become modified or become more likely or are proven true. We have a long way to go to understand the Universe and how everything works.

".."my version" is found in Genesis 1 - 3...." Sermo Doc 9

When did this happen and how long did it take. Some believe this all happened about 6000 years ago and each day was the same as our 24 hour day.

So conflicts and inconsistencies don't necessarily disprove the hypothesis.

Seems to be the same with "believers" who are still searching for the proof of their beliefs. No difference that I can see.

Learned friends: External Internal and a different state Eternal. No more sure of what it means then any of you. My Faith is such that I receive solace at times. I am allowed to think in my Faith and thus I ponder at times. I am taught love in my Faith so I allow all of you to have your own opinions and presume that they will change over time as you mature.

We need a SERMO T shirt that says " I believe..." This will be a great conversation starter and less likely to result in fist-fights or bad language! ( common when you discuss Obama, Healthcare or other political issues). We may need to get permission from ACLU indicating it is a mission-secular!..you know the kinda "OM T shirts American Visitors to India come back with!

Sermo Doc 72: I don't argue that your faith springs from immaturity, and would be presumptuous indeed to 'allow' you your faith out of personal generosity. I would ask of you the same courtesy.

Sermo Doc 5, the "standard" academic answer is that the Bible is God's Word and was written by men who were inspired by God to record His word in an inerrant and infallible fashion in the original manuscripts.

Not everything in scripture was spoken by God, but is recorded for our benefit. For example, Satan's words to Eve were not God's words, but they were recorded in an inspired, inerrant, and infallible manner. Same for discussions recorded between men, Sarah's telling Abraham to "cast out the bondwoman and her son", Satan talking to God about tempting Job, etc.... So not everything in the Bible was spoken by God, but the Bible itself is God's word and is used for our benefit and instruction.

When it comes to different translations, there is bias in the way the scriptures are translated. There is cultural bias, theological bias, racial bias. That's why it is important to understand the cultural mileau present at the time of writing, the original languages and grammar, and the historical context of what was written, in order to fully understand what is being said.

However, the overarching context and message of the whole of scripture is simple. As I stated above, "God gave man dominion over the earth. Man gave it up. God bought it back. Man's blood was tarnished with evil (sin). A "second Adam" was provided to "renew" (purify) the blood line and pay the debt of sin for all who accept this free gift. That's the entire Gospel in a nutshell."

It's all about Christ, not us.

There are "essentials" that must be believed to say we follow Christ - His deity, virgin birth, literal death/burial/resurrection, the inspiration/inerrancy/infallibility of scripture, and His literal return (second coming). Everything else is up for debate - baptism, spiritual gifts, endtimes, alcohol, creation, etc....

In answer to Pascal's wager - the problem with that is that mental assent (belief) is not enough. Life changing faith is required. "Even the devil believes and trembles".

Incidentally, I am a 6 24 hour-day creation, young earth guy. It's not a hill I'll die on though. Some things we just don't know for sure. ("....and evening and morning were the first day......and evening and morning were the second day....")

"So conflicts and inconsistencies don't necessarily disprove the hypothesis."

hy·poth·e·sis (h-pth-ss)
n. pl. hy·poth·e·ses (-sz)
1. A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.
2. Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption.
3. The antecedent of a conditional statement.

www.thefreedictionary.com

I do not think many who believe in God and/or an afterlife would view that as an hypothesis.

Wouldn't inconsistencies hypotheses mean that one was wrong, both are not completely right or our understanding is incomplete?

"Incidentally, I am a 6 24 hour-day creation, young earth guy. It's not a hill I'll die on though. Some things we just don't know for sure." Sermo Doc 9

How do you explain carbon dating which shows some things are millions of years old. Did man and dinosaurs co-exist? How can some stars be millions or billions of light years away?

A semantic splitting of hairs. Though the leap of faith is important to many it does not stop many of the faithful from searching for proof of the historical accuracy of their faith.

It is the same search no matter what you call it. Inconsistencies do not invalidate it.

My opinion, Sermo Doc 5? Trees were created full grown bearing fruit, Adam and Eve were created full grown - I don't think it would be any problem for God to create stars in the sky with their light beams reaching earth - even if they are billions of light years away.

I think this also addresses the carbon dating issue. There are some holes in the whole carbon dating accuracy thing, but not enough to compensate from 5 billion years to 10,000. Some of the elements that we don't know is how much age God created things with, or how the pre-flood canopy changes radiation and carbon metrics, or how increased life spans in the pre-flood (antediluvian) era affects current day carbon dating.

Dinasaurs? I do think they co-existed with man until the flood. (For exapmle - see Job - "leviathan"). But the bottom line is, some things we jst don't know for certain - on either side of the fence.

On one hand having faith and recognizing it as faith is one thing but on the other hand (it is good we have only two hands) having faith and not recognizing it is faith but "knowing" it is the absolute truth is different.

Searching for proof is one thing .... but shouldn't some of faith be searching to question or disprove it too?

Wonposet, my wife has the "gift of faith." She can believe without any hard evidence. I however, need some rational basis before I take the next step. I don't think either way is better, and they both lead to the same endpoint. My point is simply that faith goes beyond logic, but it does not defy logic.

"My opinion ...." Sermo Doc 9

I guess the idea that God can do anything can be used to explain things.

Yup. And the fact that we are fallible.

but didn't fallible people create the Bible?

I am simply amazed that an individual who professes to be a physician (a supposed scientist) could disregard the findings of physics, astronomy, biology, archaeology, and recorded histories of civilizations other than that of a prehistoric nomadic tribe.

I fear for your patients.

I'm glad that you are so concerned for my patients. At least mine are alive. :-)

Your ignorance knows no bounds does it? My patients are very much alive and the work I do strives to keep them that way.

Pathology does not equal dead bodies. I haven't done an autopsy since residency.

As does your arrogance Sermo Doc 13.

At least I'll admit my error. My apologies.

i think even more interesting (or just as ) as the Evolution doc was a recent Frontline piece on the origins and "evolution" of christianity and it was very similar. branches or sects that went no where. groups that modified the jewish angle and others that dismissed the semitic origin. almost like watching sausage being made. many of the talking heads were scholars from various seminaries and many of these scholars understand that the writings (bible, torah, ) are a free hand attempt to get a particular group's religious and/or political points across. i don't think many would be less pious if they understood how their religion came to be, but would be less adamant about the flawlessness, the certainty, and embrace the doubt that most of us have about writings and religion that are based on faith. be as religious as you want but just understand that you haven't cornered the market on the infallibility of your faith.

Jacob Bronowski said of Einstein that his gift was to ask simple questions, which had simple answers, in which the voice of God could be heard. Einstein famously said that the Lord is subtle, but not malicious.

Were i to believe in God, I'd take as His word all of his creation, including, but hardly limited to, the Bible. And, being part of His creation as well, with all the gifts and flaws of an imperfect, but alive and conscious, human being, I'd try to make sense out of them as best I could.

"but didn't fallible people create the Bible?"

Jesus willingly laid down His life on the cross, and then rose from the dead. After this, all the Apostles hid in fear for their lives until Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came. Then, instead of hiding, they all boldly proclaimed what they witnessed. Namely, that they saw Jesus raised from the dead. Then, they who hid in fear, suddenly proclaimed the truth of the Gospel despite it costing their very lives. Many of them died horrific deaths for absolutely NO reason except this: they said that Jesus was the Messiah, died on the cross, and rose from the dead.

I mean, think about that. They didn't hurt anybody, and neither did Jesus. They loved people and helped people.

The only thing they did was proclaim this: Jesus rose from the dead, and through faith in Him, you too can have eternal life! Freely! It is a gift of God!

And others tortured these men, and brutally killed them.
-

And to get back to your question: If He could condescend and humble Himself in becoming man, and willingly lay down His life, and then raise from the dead...
And if other men, who hid in fear for their lives, later became so bold as to not care about their current lives, but instead proclaimed the truth to the detriment of their lives...
And if I (as a previous atheist) can be transformed through the power of God...

And all this by the power of the Holy Spirit....

Then, it is really not all that difficult to consider the fact that the Holy Spirit guided fallible people to write down words that originated from God Himself.

Fallible men did NOT create the Bible.

God is the author of the Bible.

-

well said, Wombat.

This is actually a very fun discussion as long as people remain respectful.

If asking hard questions is arrogant, then I'm guilty.

I suppose making unsupported claims about a book that contradicts scientific facts is pretty humble huh? Asserting that people will suffer eternal torment if they don't accept your particular mythology is even more humble I guess.

If god is the author of the Bible then why are there so many versions? Why does the Catholic Bible contain books that others don't? Why were "gospels" other than those included in the 4th century found among the dead sea scrolls?

It's not the asking of hard questions that is arrogant, Sermo Doc 13, it's the way in which they are asked, the use of inflammatory language, and the unnecessary side bar comments.

The Bible doesn't contradict scientific facts. It, in fact, supports them. However, it is not a science book. It's purpose is not to teach science and give the answers to all of the mysteries of the universe.

It's purpose is to reconcile a fallen man to the Creator.

Re the versions - read my post above from 0949. Heck I'll even recopy it for you in my next post.

Which dead sea scroll gospels are you referring to? I know the guy who is in possession of most of them (Pulmonary/CC MD - Bill Noah in Murfreesboro, TN). I'm not aware of any "gospels" in them. There are manuscripts that support currently available scriptures (like Isaiah).

Anyway, what was chosen and what was left out was all determined by a council of elders may centuries ago using strict rules and qualifications for what was considered scripture and what was not. I'm not going to get in to "canonization" here. If you are really interested, you can look it up on Wikipedia or the like.

Here you go Sermo Doc 13 -

"The "standard" academic answer is that the Bible is God's Word and was written by men who were inspired by God to record His word in an inerrant and infallible fashion in the original manuscripts.

Not everything in scripture was spoken by God, but is recorded for our benefit. For example, Satan's words to Eve were not God's words, but they were recorded in an inspired, inerrant, and infallible manner. Same for discussions recorded between men, Sarah's telling Abraham to "cast out the bondwoman and her son", Satan talking to God about tempting Job, etc.... So not everything in the Bible was spoken by God, but the Bible itself is God's word and is used for our benefit and instruction.

When it comes to different translations, there is bias in the way the scriptures are translated. There is cultural bias, theological bias, racial bias. That's why it is important to understand the cultural mileau present at the time of writing, the original languages and grammar, and the historical context of what was written, in order to fully understand what is being said.

However, the overarching context and message of the whole of scripture is simple. As I stated above, "God gave man dominion over the earth. Man gave it up. God bought it back. Man's blood was tarnished with evil (sin). A "second Adam" was provided to "renew" (purify) the blood line and pay the debt of sin for all who accept this free gift. That's the entire Gospel in a nutshell."

It's all about Christ, not us.

There are "essentials" that must be believed to say we follow Christ - His deity, virgin birth, literal death/burial/resurrection, the inspiration/inerrancy/infallibility of scripture, and His literal return (second coming). Everything else is up for debate - baptism, spiritual gifts, endtimes, alcohol, creation, etc.... "

My old cats and dog are somewhere out there, I'm sure. They have souls, I believe. I'd look into my old dog's wise eyes, one surrounded by a black spot, and he'd smile at me and wag his tail.
I hope heaven is a place where I can run and play with my dogs and kitties.

>Searching for proof is one thing .... but shouldn't some of faith be searching to question or disprove it too? <

That's just the point. One searches to find the truth not to disprove or prove anything and there are plenty of religious scholars doing just that.

If someone completely and totally accepts the Bible as being completely true with regards to events and time involved of creation as told in Exodus, which goes against everything that is known in science, history and archeology, because a God can do anything, then there is no way to discuss the issue of creation with that person unless you accept their premise from which to start because any question can be answered by saying that was what God did.

Yes Sermo Doc 26, but scientists also try to disprove or find an exception or an inconsistency in the current scientific theories. Disproving a currently held theory also advances knowledge.

Chilicat, the issue of canonization is very interesting, but I would tend to agree with Sermo Doc 9 that the specifics are beyond the scope of our discussion here (and probably not real useful). As for noncanononical books being found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, that's no different than seeing religious books other than the Bible at my home office. Just because they are not considered the inspired word of God, doesn't mean that they are not good for additional study.

And with regard to various versions, translations, misinterpretations, and even "errors," I would challenge you (or anyone) to read any version of the Bible. I don't care if it's the Catholic Bible, the Gideon Bible, the Geneva Bible, or any version of the $5 Bible that you can find at any bookstore -- all of them tell the basic story of God. And regardless of which version you read, you will find enough general truth to appreciate #1 -- the sinful nature of man #2 -- the need for redemption #3 -- the grace of God in providing a path for redemption.

Perhaps doctrine falls apart and theologians disagree on various points of contention. Perhaps there seems to be internal and external conflict in the use or misuse of scripture. But, I think that everyone is aware of God. I believe that anyone can experience God without the Bible. And, I assert that the Bible, in any form, can provide a good enough glimpse of God, that you can respond to His basic call for reunion, redemption, and eternal life.

To get back to the original question which concerned eternal life, the primary definition of eternal is "without beginning or end".

So if we are granted eternal life by some mechanism, does our life now have no beginning since it supposedly has no end?
If so, are you saying our time here on earth is simply our "moment on stage" so to speak?
If we are eternal, then did we exist before man was created in the story of Genesis which purportedly happened 6,000 years ago?

Or is eternal life not completely eternal? It's only life after death under certain circumstances?

Wonposet... SERMO 5 STAR excellent discussion above... very interesting thoughts with so much love to the lost, patience, wisdom, etc, etc, etc atheists, new life, new born convictions, beliefs expressed to the lost, afterlife seeker...

and of course much, much, much prayer offered ... that ALL may inherit everlasting life!!! ... take it or leave it ;)

the mystery of it all... everyone has departed billions, trillions of humanity (dead, meet their CREATOR!!!) since Adam and Eve .. and nobody ever came back to tell of afterlife!!! ... but much debated since Cain was asked by God... AM I my brother's keeper!!!

which is why FAITH, only Faith of an afterlife comes only thru Jesus Christ, the Way, the Truth, the Life, ... no one goes to the Father except thru HiM!

and a personal realtionship in Gods' son (Jn 3:16) NOT religion, good works, education, wealth, profession, etc, etc is all the CROSS and Resurrection had shown and asked for!

again FAITH, that grace and love thru God's revelation only to hose whose heart is found of Thee ...

as i define it as a child... I have only two eyes in front and I leave my behind to someone who created and sent me!

aw... trying to see if im better than a fifth grader!, try Lee Strober, the case for Christ!

... hopefully, prayerfully... the blind not leading the blind!!!

Karl Popper, the philosopher of science whom most practicing scientists think got it right, viewed the attempt to falfisy existing theory as central to the scientific enterprise. A theory that remains unfalsified--which is not at all the same thing as a theory that has been proven correct--then becomes state-of-the-art science. This is a distinctly different exerc ise than that of the faithful adopting a belief.

"which is why FAITH, only Faith of an afterlife comes only thru Jesus Christ, the Way, the Truth, the Life, ... no one goes to the Father except thru HiM!" Sermo Doc 28

Hmm ... so what about all the people who died before Christ was born or even after he was born but died before he could have been recognized as who he was?

In the last of CS Lewis' Narnia stories, his Christ-figure, Aslan the Lion, grants salvation to a virtuous follower of a false god. Puzzled, he asks Aslan why. Aslan replies, that good which you did you did for me, in my name, know it or not.

This always struck me as the way to solve the problem of the virtuous pagan...

I agree with Chili that a return to the original question of the post. What would eternal life mean. I do disagree with Sermo Doc 5 that one must believe in God or another deity to believe in eternal life. There are cultures that believe that we are all connected to the cosmos or whatever you want to call it and that the energy that is our "soul" flows back into the pool of energy or even maintains its separate identity. I would say that this would constitute eternal life.

"This always struck me as the way to solve the problem of the virtuous pagan... " Sermo Doc 71

Hmmmm .... so as long as you do good, then do not really need Christ and so then why even have a Christ between man and God and doing good can be directly done in God's name? Also, then do not even need a religion.

There was an old TV show from medieval times, To Tell The Truth, where 3 people would claim to be a certain person and the panel would ask questions and then vote and then the emcee would say: "will the real [person's name] please stand up" What we need is a celestial To Tell The Truth where all the Gods would appear and then the emcee would say:
"will the real God please stand up" ;-)

www.youtube.com

Sermo Doc 5,

Bible can be very confusing and seemingly conflicting. Even among biblical scholars, there are disagreements for sure. However, the central concept of eternal life through Jesus Christ is in very clear:

C.S. Lewis was once an agnostic and wrestled with the claims of Jesus Christ. :
John 14:6: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

John 11:25-26 "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die."

These are pretty provocative statements. No rational, honest human being would utter such statements. I mean that sounds crazy, who would claim such things. Either Jesus was a crazy lunatic, a devilish liar or He knew what he was talking about...that He was God. There is no middle ground.

C.S. Lewis wrote:

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him" "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claims to be God." That is one thing that we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said those things would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make you choice. Either this man was, and is, the son of God: or else a madman or something worse."

Jesus claimed to be God. It's an outrageous claim that separates Him from Mohammad, Buddha and Confucius and others. Either He deliberately lied, or He was an insane lunatic or He spoke the truth.

I find it hard to believe that He lied knowingly. People say that He is a great moral teacher, even Muslims acknowledge Him as a good prophet. A good prophet or a good moral teacher could not make such deliberate lies. He would have to be the biggest hypocrite because He told others to be honest at whatever the cost. He told others to trust Him and trust their eternal future with Him. He also was crucified because of His claims to be God. That is some lying.

If Jesus knowingly lied about His deity and claims of eternal life, Jesus has to be the most deceitful, selfish, depraved man. I mean we celebrate Christmas and take up our time going to church and sing and argue about Him because of His claims. How could this man invent and consistently maintain from the beginning to His death on the cross that He is God, all of it a big lie, and at the same time preach truth, love, forgiveness and ask others to trust their eternal lives to Him?? I find it hard to believe that Jesus would have lied about this knowingly.

So, was He a lunatic?? Maybe he was schizophrenic, hearing voices?? Could He have been mistaken about His own identity?? Perhaps He was sincere in His claims but simply wrong.

If any patient came to us and made similar claims, we would do an psychiatric consult stat. Crazy, crazy. It's like claiming that you are Abraham Lincoln's left pinky toe. Patient must be self-deluded, living a fantasy or off his medications. Was Jesus the same?? Hard to believe that Jesus could have been so deluded. Patients who often make these claims are usually not too stable and or say many profound things and travel with a group of followers.

Sure, there are some self-deceived cult leaders but their philosophy or teachings do not pass the test of time. Usually deluded cult leaders are found out in their life-time and their teachings are full of crap and their followers are sorely disappointed.

Christ's teachings, Sermon on the Mount etc are profound and pass the test of time and have become the blueprint for human relationships and success in life e.g "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you..." etc Christianity and His teachings have become foundations of our laws and protection of basic human rights.

You could argue that no other human being on earth has a greater impact on the world than Jesus Christ. It's hard to believe that Christ would've had such a preposterous delusion and at the same time had the intellectual capacity to come up with the teachings and insights into human behavior that would change society.

...So Christ made these outrageous, preposterous claims....if He were neither a liar nor a delusional fool then you must make a choice about His claims and look into the possibility that He is God...

savaah: I'm an agnostic myself, though gentle in my faith so as to admit the possibility of liberal religion. Perhaps that's why it suits me. But Lewis is worth quoting as an unimpeachably Christian voice on the subject, though, as you suggest, there are Christians who'd disagree.

"I do disagree with sayaah that one must believe in God or another deity to believe in eternal life" Sermo Doc 26

I was concentrating my comments to the main discussion here, so I stand (though currently sitting) corrected and agree that not everyone in other cultures needs a God for an afterlife

There are cultures with different ideas about eternal or afterlife, but generally in our culture, the afterlife is associated with God, or in Christ, as a way to an afterlife.

Christianity and Islam both deal with the afterlife, whereas it is not as clear cut in Judaism. There are cultures in the world which do not need a God for the afterlife.

It can be hard for some to accept that just as we did not exist before birth, we will not exist after death except in the minds and hearts of family and friends who survive us as we remember family and friends who had died, but eventually, there will be no one to remember us ..... the King is dead, long live the King

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Genesis 3:19

Sermo Doc 5, excellent question, my friend..

aaah, blind faith, and is there FAITH on those, born before Christ, and babes, infants, children beyond age of reasoning, ... can they inherit eternal life!!!

blind faith includes my posteriorly situated occipital lobe who cant see the front but synthesize, process neurons bipolar to the nth zones for transmission until clear vision is achieved.... thats how I see myself beyond me is an ocean I can never attempt to paddle... and this is where Ill ask your encyclopedic help because of your SERMO prolificity!!!

and what happens I can only infer... I can only infer to my "blind faith, hind sight as a Christian fifth grader!!"

1. the sovereignty of God over His creation and dominion as an Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent God!
2. Scriptural inference of Christ ascension after three days, visiting "downstairs!!!
3. That our deeds, words, are all recorded in the Book of Life!!!
4. His eyes look to and fro.... from above!!!

PS We can only see a glimpse and full revelation (to every mysteries, unknowns we want to know) when we are ushered with Him forever!

Meanwhile, I challenge you to celebrate Super SERMO Brawl with a cup of tea!!!

CHEERS for New Year and blessings :}

Question:

From what we know about odds with random events and the size and age of the universe and the number of stars over billions of years some of which have orbiting planets and some planets even conducive to the development of life and some with life even evolving/progressing and the fact that in all these billions of years, we have been around for few thousand and we know much about the Earth before man appeared, so do we need a God for us to exist today or are we the ones (or if you accept that there has been and is life on others planets in the universe, one of the lucky ones) who finally beat the odds?

Sermo Doc 28 -

Perhaps they were grandfathered in .... but then someone would say that means that God has a Father and we will go off on another whole tangent ;-)

It's turtles all the way down. ;-)

I prefer not to repeat myself on Sermo, but I can't find the posts where I explained some incidents that reinforced my religious faith. Therefore, I hope you will forgive my repetition.

Mark was a "bad boy" in the Bottoms. He spent most of his early childhood behind bars, because jail was the best home he ever had. Therefore, he constantly committed crimes to get sent back home.

I only saw him occasionally between incarcerations, but he wrote me from jail because his family never visited him. He cried because his welfare caseworker didn't visit him; she was his only visitor one year.

Mark's sister was incarcerated for a series of bank robberies called by the press, "The Bonnie & Clyde bank robberies."

According to rumors on the street, it was Mark who broke into my house on the Bottoms the day I was moving into it. Someone stole my coin collection, my uncle's World War I medal, my class ring, my Cum Laude pin, other jewelry and a few other items of great sentimental value. Mark was said to have sold them.

Nonetheless, I felt sorry for the boy. When he called me and said he was hungry, I told him to stop by the office, and I gave him a few dollars to get something to eat.

That night I returned home at 11 PM and turned on the television news. Mark had been shot, allegedly breaking into a house in the Bottoms.

I telephoned Father Francis X. Schweitzer, parish priest of the Bottoms, and told him Mark had been shot and asked him to go with me to see him in Mount Carmel Hospital.

"Why don't you call Father Ben Applegate?" was Father's reply. Father Applegate was the chaplain at Mt. Carmel.

"Mark wants you," I said.

"My car won't start." (It was the coldest night of the year with sub-zero temperatures, Fahrenheit, of course).

"My car is running."

"I am in my pajamas."

"Throw a cassock over your pajamas, Father. I'll be there in five minutes."

When we arrived at the Neurosurgical Intensive Care Unit, we found Mark in very bad condition. One half of his body was paralyzed; his tongue was hanging out of his mouth; he couldn't talk; he certainly couldn't walk. By the side of his bed was the CT scan that showed two bullets devastating one side of his brain.

The neurosurgeon, the best in the city, did what he could. He opened Mark's head and closed him back up after deciding that Mark was inoperable. As a man of faith, the surgeon welcomed my help and Father's, but he had little to offer.

Father realized why I so frequently took him to see critically ill patients. Though technically I should have called Father Applegate, Applegate was a great theological scholar who would have adhered to the letter of the law and might not have baptized Mark. Father Schweitzer not only baptized him without question but also gave him the last rites of the church, which perhaps was redundent after the baptism. We went home in the early hours of the morning expecting Mark to die that night.

Just as I arrived home, my phone rang. It was the neurosurgical ICU. Mark woke up!
I rushed back to the hospital and found Mark awake and violent. He had attack the police officers who were guarding him, and they handcuffed him and restrained him.

I sent home the police officers and took off the restraints and handcuffs. The last thing Mark needed was to see police in the ICU. I promised to stay all night.

I ripped down the sign that read NPO and fed Mark spoons of orange juice. If he was going to die that night, he wouldn't die thirsty.

Mark calmed down, and I was able to leave him at 8 AM to return to my office. He was alive and able to speak, but half his body was still paralyzed.

Outside the hospital I met Sister Marie-Pierre Hester (Sister of Notre Dame). Sister was eighty years old when I gave her an electric typewriter so she could write more letters to President Reagan. She once wrote a newspaper column for the Columbus newspaper. She used a pseudonym to prevent conflict with her order. She played the organ and was an excellent teacher. Though she continued to wear a veil, she finally abandoned her habit and adjusted very well to the changes in the modern church.

Sister said, "I heard your patient was shot. At noon mass we will pray for his complete recovery."

"This time, Sister," I told her, "it might be best to pray for his soul. He is likely to die today."

"With God," replied Sister, "all things are possible."

"God bless you, Sister."

Shortly after noon mass, my phone rang. It was the neurosurgical intensive care unit. Mark's paralysis had suddenly left. He got up out of bed and was walking. It looked like a full and immediate recovery.

Perhaps his cerebral edema had resolved. Perhaps the bullets had missed all critical structures in his brain. Whatever the explanation, the timing was right.

This was the first of many miracles apparently mediated by Father Schweitzer.

Patients are waiting. I will comment more later.

There were no pigs picketing McDonalds this morning so I had 2 sausage bisquits. Apparently Man is special enough that the pigs are happy with Man's dominion over them and appreciate the opportunity to serve by providing nurishment for us.

Pascal's Wager doesn't cover everything. It only talks about a "good" god and winning or losing based on that assumption. Full disclosure would require you to assume that A. you choose the correct god, and B. if you choose the incorrect god, that the correct god isn't a punitive god. However, most people forget part B. So, in reality, you can actually lose very big if you choose to be some flavor of, say, Christianity (what the Christians on Sermo seem to insinuate is the optimal choice), IF the ruling deity turns out to be Zeus or Allah or Osiris or the Devil (if there's one at all), and IF that deity is punitive, and wants to punish you for worshiping a false idol, or for just choosing poorly. So, the wager isn't all "gain" and no "risk" the way Sermo Doc 70 pretends, it could actually condemn you to eternal torture in the afterlife for choosing either incorrectly or "just because it seemed like a safe idea." Therefore, recommending to people they should "believe just because you will lose nothing" remains a false argument for the reason above. You see, when you delve into the absurd, you have to look at all the possibilities, not just the warm fuzzy ones.

While many stories of "miracles" are indeed inspiring and heartwarming (as yours is Wonposet) are they truly "miracles"?

There is an alternative scientifically based explanation for why the boy recovered besides intervention of a "god". Humans love to see patterns, we love to provide explanations for things. As I'm sure we all learned in medical school: correlation does not prove causation.

A true miracle would be one that can have NO other explanation. I heard it said once that while there are many discarded crutches along the path to a certain holy shrine, there are no discarded prosthetic limbs. Paralysis can reverse and seem miraculous. Diseases (even cancer) can unexpectedly be cured and it does appear miraculous. It would be truly miraculous if an amputated limb grew back or someone who was dead for an extended period of time came back to life.

I'm still curoius about how something eternal (with no beginning or end) can begin after death.

Little Ricky's parents both worked for me. His mother's water had broken the night before, but she didn't realize it.

For some reason the obstetrician waited a long time before performing an emergency c-section.

Ricky, Jr. did not breathe immediately and required a respirator for many weeks. He seemed almost never to move. He received antibiotics, but no cultures were positive.

His condition deteriorated.

I called Father Schweitzer, who baptized him.

He hadn't moved for weeks. He required hyperalimentation to survive. His prognosis looked poor.

Soon after his baptism, a culture of the CSF grew yeast. He had yeast meningitis, which responded well to treatment.

Today Ricky, Jr. is a normal twenty year old man. He works every day, is happily married, and is raising two children.

Another very touching story, but really more about the success of the child's medical care isn't it? Which do you think is responsible for his survival....baptism or treatment of his yeast memingitis? Would you have been willing to wager the child's life on baptism and prayer alone?

you guys have to see the Discovery channel - program name: Ancient Aliens" - amazing!

Wonposet, another fine story, but many would not consider this "miraculous." Indeed in order to believe in miracles, one must believe in powers that are supra-scientific. Once a person admits to a God who surpasses our understanding and transcends our feeble science, then we can appreciate simple acts such as this to be miraculous.

The only VERIFIABLE miracles that I am aware of actually happened long ago, and many are reluctant to accept the eyewitness accounts as untrustworthy. But even if one refuses to accept the testimony about a resurrected Christ, I would encourage everyone to read Acts chapters 3 & 4. Here you will find the story of a congenitally crippled beggar ("lame from his mother's womb") who after more than 30 years of dependence on charity was immediately and completely healed on command in the name of Jesus. This was done publicly before believers and non-believers, but when the man continued to walk around as ongoing evidence of the miracle, the Jewish religious leaders could not supress the act or deny the miracle. Unfortunately, this event is not often repeated in our daily lives (or many more would believe), but blessed is the man who has not seen and yet still believes.

OK--for those of you who don't believe in contradictions or evilness in the bible, q'uran, book o' mormon, etc., here's a nice primer for you, with your own words and notation so you can find the verses in your own books at home:

skepticsannotatedbible.com

Lots of fun for everyone! The Lego stories are fantastic, so if you see them, be sure to click through!

Miracles happen every day in modern hospitals. Patients get well "in spite of doctors and midlevels"..So should we consecrate administrators to sainthood?

THANKS LEAST SERVANT YOU HAVE IT RIGHT.

Father GrahamHess from the movie "SIGNS".

Quotes from Father Graham Hess: "You just have to ask yourself, what kind of person are you? Are you the type that sees signs? Sees miracles? Or do you think that people just get lucky?" "Is it possible that there are no coincidences?"

See South Park - The Movie, for a cogent summary of all these issues.

LOL colorlady!

Just blame Canada!

CHRISTMAS, FUNNY THING CELEBRATES THE BIRTH OF A BABE 2009 YEARS AGO. THE SAME PERSON WAS KILLED ON A ROMAN CROSS THIRTY YEARS OLD. 5000 OR MORE SAW HIM ALIVE AND DIED BECAUSE THEY DEFENDE HIS DIETY. 2009 YEARS LATTER ALL HAVE TO ANSWER. WHO WAS THIS MAN? HE SHOWED THE WORLD THERE IS LIFE AFRT DEATH. THIS IS NOT A FABLE BUT A FACT OF HISTORY. FOR 2009 YEARS IT HAS SURVIVED. WHO DO YOU SAY I AM? A BURNING QUESTION FOR 21ST CENTURY DOCTORS WHO SEE FOLKS DIE AND WE SAY, ETERNITY IS A FACT NOT FICTION. WE SEE THE COMPLEXITY OF THE HUMAN BEING AND WE KNOW THIS IS MORE THAN DUST. WE EVEN BELIEVE IN LAZURUS. HENCE THE LAZARUS EXPERIENCE IS IN OUR NOMEN CLATURE. JESUS CALLED THIS MAN BY NAME AND HE CAME OUT OF A GRAVE WITH GRAVE CLOTHES ON. SEEING YOU BELIEVE HE SAID, BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO NOT HAVING SEEN BELIEVE. COUNT ME IN. YOU WILL BE A BETTER DOCTOR TOO. HAPPY NEW YEAR!

t that time I knew I would be well. It however took me 10 months after being diagnosed with gastroparesis and Guillein Barre as result of the flu shot. With tpn and then a duodenal tube i survived. You ask if there is a GOD I say very definitely YES , I talk to him daily.

THe first part of that was some how lost I took a flu shot in 1997 and 5 days later I started vomiting every thing I tool in and it took 2 months before I was diagnosed . I lost 70 lbs and at times I felt that I was dying. i was in hospital every 3 days for rehydration. I was diagnosed with all kinds of things , but nothing worked In one of the bad days I felt thar i was dying and My mother said that she thought I was dying. I saw a bright light at the end of a tunnel and an image. He told me that "he still had need for me. ( please read this part and tie it in with the above.)

So now we're practicing medicine based on anecdotes? I thought we were taught in medical school NOT to practice anecdotal medicine (along with the "correlation does not equal causation" guideline).

What kind of scientific method did your school teach?

The above link to the skeptics annotated bible is excellent! Is there a reply from those still claiming it is the infallible work of god?

I believe in miracles because I have seen so many of them.

Sometimes I think every day we live and continue to survive is a miracle.

Whenever I see a baby born, or a child laugh, or a cat purr, or the sun set, I realize how wonderful it is to live and to enjoy the miracle of life.

www.youtube.com

Sermo Doc 75
Doesn't it bother you that the people who knew Jesus the best did NOT recognize
him after the resurrection? Human sacrifices have a long history in humans to
appease God or the gods. Who now believes that the murder of a human can
appease God? The sacrifice of Jesus to forgive the sins of other just does not
make any sense.

Sermo Doc 75, you're right, it is funny we celebrate xmas on Dec 25th, when it aligned with the pagan festivals and the Roman Saturnalia. The date wasn't fixed until centuries after the supposed birth of this half-man, half-god, b y the church.

Eternity is a fact--time does go on forever. However, I don't think people experience the eternity you're referring to.

We don't all believe in Jesus, or Lazarus. I don't think believing in Jesus or any religion, for that matter, makes one a better doctor.

However, learning to type using proper capitalization and proofreading (latter, defende, afrt, etc.) will make you much easier to read.

"Sometimes I think every day we live and continue to survive is a miracle.

Whenever I see a baby born, or a child laugh, or a cat purr, or the sun set, I realize how wonderful it is to live and to enjoy the miracle of life. "

That's a pretty low bar for miracles. Everything is a miracle!

The celebration of Christmas really amuses me too. We've co-opted pagan celebrations and rituals (Christmas trees etc.) to celebrate a birthday (which is of itself a pagan celebration). The Puritans (whom I believe were christian) attempted to ban Christmas on several occasions.

I'm not about to wade through all of these posts! Let me just say this: I consider myself a deist and a former Christian. I think the Bible - AT BEST - is a rough outline to some deep stuff...................

I would encourage folks to browse through www.whywontgodhealamputees.com

for some thought provoking stuff.

In medicine we have idiopathic when we do not understand and when we do, it is no longer called idiopathic. (the doctor is too much of an idiot to figure out the pathology)

Miracles are things that happen, usually good things, that we cannot explain. Science has given reasonable scientific explanations for some of them and with advances in science, we will have reasonable explanations for more.

Yes, some people get better who should not and it is viewed as a miracle, the Will of God, but when some do not (even ones who should get better, it is also viewed as the Will of God.

There was the Miracle of the Sun, near Fatima Portugal in 1913 where it was reported that the sun danced in the sky. What we need is another one like that today where thousands can record it on their video phones and NASA satellites can document it and record it and every person in the world in day light can see it.

there is not one shred of hard evidence that Jesus even existed - beyond the pages of the Bible or other faiths' scriptures.

Acording to John 14:12-14 -

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."


Therefore - it would only take ONE believer to ask God to make the sun "dance in the sky" or to regenerate fully an amputated limb for it to happen. Notice that Jesus does NOT say "if it be God's will" or "but maybe God will say NO"....the statement - purportedly bt Jesus Himself - is clear, concise and unambiguous.

The verbal gymansitics that some have come up with in order to talk around this very clear promise is fascinating to behold.

Sermo Doc 79 -

Many historians present evidence that many of the US Founding Fathers were Deists which raises another whole issue for those who want God to be a greater part of the country.

Many people view much in the Bible as parables rather that facts.

For what reason would God NOT perform miracles TODAY for the world to behold? Certianly Jesus wasn't a stranger to openly dislaying His ability to perform miracles - rasing Lazarus, giving sight back to a blind man and rising from the dead Himself - BODILY and rising to Heaven. In the Old Testament - Moses parted the Red Sea for example....all pretty bold demonstrations. Why does God hide? So that only the faithful will believe by faith alone? Then why all of the magic during Jesus' time? Why the Old Testament miracles? Why NOT now?

Surely the sun jumping around the sky or a huge figure in the sky would make doubters suddenly doubt their doubting.....

Sermo Doc 13--you are most definitely a kindred spirit! (in the metaphorical sense of the word) And rest assured, you and I are probably headed in the same direction as Gandhi! At least I know I am!

Colorlady, I am going to reorder the book if I can't find it in the next 48 hours "The Doctor and the Soul: From Psychotherapy to Logotherapy" Viktor E. Frankl. I will let you know when I get it and perhaps we can do the book club thing as originally planned. Maybe Chili would like to participate also along with the others that were/are interested?

I also have seen many "miracles" to which I just say "I can't explain it".

According to the quote from John - that certainly couldn't be construed to be anything other than a straightforward promise by Jesus (not a parable or allegorical statement)

In short - since not one single, solitary amputee has ever been reported to have regenerated a single amputated limb EVER - in the history of medical knowledge or reputable documentation - these are the possible explanations:

1. God somehow dislikes or simply refuses to deal with amputees - no matter how "good", pious or deserving they may be. And no matter HOW MANY people pray for their limb restorations. - in violation of Jesus' promise in John 14 (and many other verses as well)

2. Jesus lied or left out a few disclaimers in His seemingly all-inclusive promise in John 14:12-14.

3. John - and therefore the Bible - is in ERROR.

4. There is no God/Jesus.

5. No believer ever actually thought about praying for a limb restoration (which could easily be fixed by any believer who is reading this now). In fact - if this is the case - I call for ANY believer reading this right now to pray for the restoration of ALL amputated limbs of all the living amputees right NOW.

Sermo Doc 79, seriously.....no shred of evidence that Jesus even existed. That is an untenable position, and I would recommend further research before declaring such nonsense. If you choose to say that Jesus is not God, or that his teachings have been changed/inflated, then at least you have arrived at a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. But to state that Jesus didn't exist as a historical man just shows that you haven't done your homework.

"Surely the sun jumping around the sky or a huge figure in the sky would make doubters suddenly doubt their doubting..... " Sermo Doc 79

And a flying saucer hovering over a major city and being track by NASA coming towards the earth like asteroids and then leaving would resolve another issue.

In the Bible the story about Elijah and the Fiery Chariot, was the Fiery Chariot an UFO and was Elijah and alien or a human being abducted ;-)

As one group of people exposed to death, what are people's experiences?
Have you noticed the total lack of life in a dead child or an adult in the ER? What about when a choking person takes a breath, when a newborn cries, when you are able to get blood into someone faster than they bleed out, etc.
I have not seen God but God makes his or her presence known. The times I have prayed for guidance and then it suddenly hits me.
I do feel God's presence in my priest. (I also recognize his humanity and imperfections) however he was very helpful when my dad died and my kids became terrors. There is no way to prove some things in life and there is plenty we cannot explain in scientific terms.

I just finished reading "The Genesis Secret: A Novel" by Tom Knox. Sermo Doc 5, you might enjoy it as it touches on your comment.

If there is a God how come he's making all this Health Care Reform garbage? Why doesn't he just let us practice Medicine in Peace.? Why can't we have a miracle and have people respect us again.? Do we have to die and go to heaven to see good health care? Won't that be a lttle too late?

colorlady, you have just made the most persuasive argument yet!

Aint that the truth?

"If there is a God how come he's making all this Health Care Reform garbage?" Sermo Doc 30

Perhaps God prefers faith healers over doctors .... any evidence of that?

I'm more of a Deist. I think God let's us do whatever, and hopefully learn by our mistakes.
I'm wondering:
...What if God was one of us? Just a slob like one of us? Just a stranger on the bus, trying to make his way home? No one to call Him on the phone, 'cept for the Pope maybe in Rome....

Great song!

I don't see even needing a deity. The buddhists and taoists have been getting along for hundreds of years without one. I don't buy into all the ceremony associated with buddhism but some of the ideas in the dhammapada (and the Tao te ching) are intriguing.

As an aside, have you ever looked at the quotes and teachings attributed to buddha alongside those attributed to Jesus? I don't want to accuse any christians of plaigerism.....but well, you be the judge. www.amazon.com

I could be persuaded to join in a book club. I love to read, question and learn.

Sermo Doc 54 - wait - that's not how it works.........besides the Bible, cite ONE HISTORICAL CONTEMPORARY record or artifact documenting Jesus' existence. (the Josephus "account" was NOT contemporaneous)

What IS untenable is for you to cite ONLY the Bible or other non-contemporary document as proof of His existence.

Well Sermo Doc 13, there is the theory that Jesus made it to the Far East, died and is buried there. And where are the three Wise Men from? Never really defined.

But obviously religions have all borrowed from each other at some point, or else had similar events happen which were explained in slight variations.
Gilgamesh and Noah
www.answersingenesis.org

Sargon and Moses
parkersmood.wordpress.com

to name but a few examples.

I find religious study fascinating, and always enlightening. The arguments for and against Wonposet's initial question of believing in eternal life are all good, except for a few snipes here and there. Indeed, the problem that I have is not if there is Eternal Life, but in that some think it is their prerogative from their Deity to be the judge of who is worthy. An entirely different question and thought line.

Maybe it all boils down to a Seagull finding perfection.

Okla - Jesus is in the Qur'an and also there are some historical records in India regarding him.

So sad about the library in Alexandria, perhaps even more would be known.

are these "some historical records" in India CONTEMPORARY to Jesus' supposed lifetime? Was the Qur'an written during Jesus' lifetime?

Enough with all these men! At least take a look The Women's Bible.

Sermo Doc 79:
I am glad we agree on something. I do believe that Jesus was a real person; but,
do think that he was only human--not devine.

Where do we get "The Women's Bible?" I will take a look. I know that
you girls are darned smart!! I beat my wife on an IQ test; but, she outsmarted me
on evrything else.

We are very smart. We tricked Adam into eating the forbidden fruit, and we snickered and rolled our eyes while men waged bloody wars for nothing.
We live longer than the males, because we have the brains and the beauty.
Sorry, but it's just true. ; )
The Goddess would probably agree with me.

I don't know about eternal life..After seeing what politicians do for fun, I now believe in eternal lies...

I certainly do.

Sermo Doc 30...there's a woman's bible?

Dear God I hope one of the commandments is thou shalt not inquire of thy spouse "do I look fat in these jeans?"

mohican...i agree with you

or

Thou shall let thy man get lost in the wilderness for at least 40 years before you stop and ask for directions

OK OKLA - as for contemporary, yes there are some Romans who made comments on the "King of the Jews" shortly after his crucifiction - I think it was Thallus, but I'd have to google it to remember. In terms of the bible, there is a supposed earlier text called the Q doctrine, from which Matthew, Mark and Luke came from. Additionally, there are well over 40 Gospels, many/most of which are not in the Bible, including the Gospel of Thomas which is in the Nag Hammadi Library. I am not sure how much contemporary writing you need. For you have to imagine that most people of the time were illiterate and unlike today, were people write about their daily bathroom rituals on twitter, things just weren't written down as much. Plus, the fragility of the texts, difficulties in mass reproductions etc.

Reconstructing history is fascinating, but limited in many ways. The ability to reconstruct life in the Sahara before it was a desert by some cave drawings, refuse heaps and bits of pottery - to imagine what happened to the Mayans, the Toltecs - to think about Easter Island - to think about the Monoliths throughout Europe - all those things are what make religious study fascinating to me. A bit of science, a bit of inference and it can be a ton of fun.

First of all, I wouldn't be too quick to poo-poo the Bible. In most cases concerning Jesus it is the only eyewitness record, and in every other respect the gospels are accurate in their geopolitical history (especially Luke as mentioned previously, and his sequel, Acts). Not accepting the gospel accounts of Jesus (despite their obvious bias) is kind of like saying that we cannot accept any Jewish account of the Holocaust (because it would be biased, and too anti-Nazi).

However, to partially answer your question:

Tacitus, generally regarded as a very accurate historian of the 1st century and then later, Suetonius, chief secretary of the Roman emperor Hadrian (early 2nd century) both mention Chrestus as the ultimate instigator of the fires of Rome in 49 AD. Although, they are actually blaming the followers of Chrestus, he receives treatment as a historical figure. From Tacitus, "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of the procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular."


You have already mentioned Josephus, a Jewish historian of the 1st century, but many believe that his accounts were "doctored" by later Christians, so we'll skip what would otherwise be an excellent early source.

Pliny the Younger was a Roman administrator who wrote in a letter to Emperor Trajan (112 AD), "They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to do any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food - but food of an ordinary and innocent kind." This is evidence that Jesus was worshipped as God from an early date, and not deified later as Dan Brown might have us believe.

From the Talmudic history, we have a Jewish perspective which indicates the time and facts of the crucifixion, "On the eve of Passover, Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favour, he was hanged on the eve of Passover!"

And then there is Lucian, a 2nd century Greek satirist, who writes, "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account...You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."
So, despite being one of the Church's most vocal critics, Lucian actually provides one of the best early accounts of Christian life outside of the New Testament, and yes, he regards Jesus as an actual, historical man.

I'm sure that you would like to have other first or second-hand accounts dating to within a few years of Jesus ministry, but for those we turn not only to the Biblical authors (whose testimony you apparently will not accept), but the early church fathers (who you will probably consider too biased). Yet, suffice to say that Jesus was not treated as a concept or a "great moral teacher," but as fully God and fully man.

However, despite taking away our three best sources (the Biblical accounts, the early church fathers, and Josephus), it still seems quite improbable that Jesus never existed in the flesh. Now, I invite your rebuttal and would encourage you to find as many relative contemporaries to testify to the existence of any Roman Ceasar.

wonposet
The early Cathoic Church did not invent purgatory, the concept but not the specific name was present from the Apostoic times. Source: An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine by John Henry Newman

Sermo Doc 54 - okay, I'll agree that Jesus POSSIBLY existed. In fact, I'll stipulate that He did. According to your post, I'll stipulate that the gospels are totally accurate:

"...Not accepting the gospel accounts of Jesus ... is kind of like saying that we cannot accept any Jewish account of the Holocaust ..."

Given that

1. Jesus existed AND
2. the gospels are very accurate concerning Jesus (as you have claimed) THEN

John 14:12-14 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.



Since I ASSUME you are a true believer in the divinity of Jesus - I think it would be wonderful if you were to pray for the eradication of ALL DISEASE on the planet at this moment. Unless, of course you would have reason NOT to want all disease eradicated...

Interesting historical accounts. I am very uneducated about early Christianity.

I have to say, Sermo Doc 15 is quite funny. I think that is the reason Moses took forty years to find the promised land. His wife was probably nagging him to "ask one of those Canaanites, already, you big lug!" And Moses replied, "Naw, honey, I can figure it out! You just make a right at this goatherder's tent here, and follow the sign to the next camel watering station there, and..."

another awesome wonposet thread and post

Sermo Doc 79,

MANY historical events and persons are documented with other than contemporary historical records. The Bible is not an aberration in this regard. You can't hold evidence in the Bible to a higher standard than other historical documents where we accept non-contemporaneous accounts as evidence of the existence of historical personages.

They didn't have cell phones you know.

What just "blows me away " are the comments on this blog like "Sermo Doc 54"----What would this M.D. do if while taking a history from a patient he heard that the patient had a father ? but was born of a virgin ?? And this patient began to tell him how he could walk on water and rise into the sky unpowered after he was murdered etc.etc. One would have to either laugh or cry "out of pity" ----but people like "Sermo Doc 54" just plain believe it!!! And part of their proof is a old book which has been translated and edited and in some cases re written hundreds if not thousands of times. That sort of thinking or belief is what I can't understand.He would not believe me if I told him that snickers cause invisibility----but he will staunchly support things just as silly> What is it about the god concept that allows some to throw out all common sense and rationality and truly "believe" such nonsense---can this person be expected to regain common sense and rationality when caring for children???? IT TRULY SCARES ME - As Voltaire siad so well------ " Someone that can make you believe absurdities----can also get you to commit atrocities." Does that concern anyone else???

Mark 11:24 : Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours....
.
.
WHy all this fuss about Healthcare reform - all that needs to happen is for a true believer to ASK for Jesus to remove all disease and injury from the world....

Psalms chapter 41: 3 The Lord will sustain him on his sickbed
and restore him from his bed of illness.

again - what's the need for heathcare reform or doctors, for that matter?

Is the Bible not accurate? In Mark - a gospel - isn't it very accurate? Isn't Jesus pretty darned clear in what He says there? Why is there illness and people without limbs - or eyesight?

I have never been able to understand why people who seem to be otherwise rational and sane go all soft in the head when it comes to (their) religious beliefs. Of course, the beliefs of others are simply crazy, but mine...oh no they're the personal revelations to me by an unseen being. Uh huh. I think that's called a hallucination or delusion....

I was wondering as I was driving home, why did god need to make male and female? Since he is male and got along for the better part of an eternity without female companionship and Adam was made in his image, what's the need for Eve? Companionship and reproduction you say. Couldn't Adam have found companionship with other men? Surely a god could work out a way of reproducing which didn't involve sex. (well, supposedly in the new testament he actually did)

Another curious point I've wondered about in the New Testament is why does Jesus repeatedly say that the kingdom of god is "at hand" or "coming soon" or will arrive before his current generation passes or before those he is speaking with have died? (Matthew 16:28, Luke 9:27, Mark 9:1, 1 Peter 4:7, Matthew 23:36, Matthew 24:34) Empty promises? He just got it wrong? His definition of soon is a little flexible?

Jimi, it also concerns me that your arrogance cannot concede that there are things beyond your control or understanding. I am rational, and I am not trying to convince you to become a Christian or to throw away your brain, I'm simply defending the basis of my faith. We should not accept miracles or magic or anything as supernatural if there is a natural explanation. Yet, I'm sure you'll agree that some things currently have no natural or scientific explanation. And when no natural explanation exists, one must reach alternative conclusions. You and I have clearly reached different conclusions about the world beyond medicine, but regarding natural disease and evidence-based medicine, we probably agree more than you would care to think. I'm not a bad doctor.

Sermo Doc 79, thank you for conceding that Jesus was a historical figure. That is a mature example of admitting the boundaries of your knowledge. I will admit that I am not a theologian, that I have many knowledge boundaries, and I don't yet have an answer to your postulation. But I will give it much further thought......

James 5:15:
And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up.

Is the Bible the True Word of God or is it not? All of the faithful reading this - say a prayer. I have amblyopia...please take it away and give me perfect 20/20 vision in both eyes....I am deserving, I'm a good person, I help other, I believe in some notion of God....even if I didn't, surely you still say a prayer for me and take away my afflictions - wouldn't you? You ARE healers, after all - and you have the power that Jesus promised that you would have - right there in the Bible......

" Someone that can make you believe absurdities----can also get you to commit atrocities." Does that concern anyone else??? - Sermo Doc 45

You mean like believing life started from a primordial soup in a hostile environment and ended up with us after a one celled "bacterium" with no nucleus existed for 4 billion years before even developing a nucleus? Then a short 3 billion years later we've got man? How absurd is that? Certainly much more absurd than believing in a Creator.

Many have been healed and are being healed today all over the world. I personally know missionaries who have seen this in the bush with their very own two eyes.

I was healed as a 3 year old child, as well. After being given little chance to live with a brain hemorrhage and a platelet count of 5, had a complete reversal and left the hospital in completely normal condition the very next day. Winthrop Hospital, Mineola, NY, March 1970. The night before I was healed, I dreamt that Jesus touched and healed me. The doctors had absolutely no explanation and were dumbfounded.

OK----Sermo Doc 9------------- How many people have been maimed,tortured and killed by evolutionists? Now matter how absurd evolution sounds I'm not going to kill you for not believing BUT people like you " believe " so strongly that they will do just that !!

I thought you were an atheist back then?

If evolution is so absurd why do we jack around with all this genetic non-sense? Prayer and healing seem so much more efficient, we could eleminate all the sciences and just study the Bible!

I'm really having trouble with the humans and dinosaurs cohabitating...why are their fossils never found in close proximity?

Hey, how did the flood kill the fish, the deep sea vent worms, the whales, or any of the other water dwelling creatures? Or were they on the Ark too?

I STIPULATED that Jesus existed, although I have some doubt.

I am anxious to hear how you can reconcile all of these PROMISES that Jesus made about how God WILL answer all your prayers (and "sometimes the answer is NO" is not what He promised) - yet God doesn't seem to have EVER answered anybody's prayers to restore amputated limbs - or raise a dead family member (way beack when i believed as a 10 year old boy - I prayed and prayed and prayed that my dad would sit up in his casket and come back home with us - it didn't happen).

" a short 3 billion years"

I guess time means different things to differnt people.....

Proverbs 3:5-8: Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord and shun evil. This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones.

Thus, why do we as doctors even bother, all one has to do is trust in and fear the Lord and shun evil and people will be healthy - no need for drugs or surgery.

Okla - seriously dude, it doesn't work like that. But, let's assume for a moment that there is no God, no nothing. Then, on what basis does one live one's life?

Can you be an atheist and be "good"? Sure, but what is good anyway but a human construct? It has no basis in the laws of the universe, for any action can not be viewed as good or bad in and of itself. Or are there Universal Principles that exist beyond the basis of any religion? What are they? Is good merely doing whatever it takes to ensure the survival of your personal genetic code, or is it the actions that promulgate the code of our species? I don't know, it makes no sense to me, that rational people would act as if there isn't a Pattern in the whole thing somewhere. It is not magical thought, although it might be arrogance to claim we have any idea what the rules are.

I studied the Bible for years as a younger man with an open mind and have come to doubt it's inerrancy (understatement) and, in fact, most of what it says - will YOU check out whywontgodhealamputees with an open mind as well? It's an easy read (no flowery mumbo-jumbo) and a REAL eye opener.

Also----Sermo Doc 54----I never said that I was or was even capable of understanding all things---when I can't explain something I admit it---I don't say " jesus [insert any god you like ] did it------there's a difference in admiting ignorance and always explaining odd things with " because god wanted it that way " !

3 billion years vs. a week.

Which is a more absurd timeline to create animals?

I'm pretty sure buddhists and taoists (both groups of atheists) have no problem being "good" and figuring out how to live their lives.

chilicat - I never said I was an atheist. You've confused me with someone else.

jimimd - granted, many have, and continue to kill others in the name of God (esp Islam), but that is NOT a teaching of Christ. "love your enemies". So, as a Christian, I promise not to kill you. As a soldier, I might....depends...... :-)

Sermo Doc 11 - it's relative. 4 billion years from prokaryote to eukaryote. Then only 3 billion from eukaryote to algae, fish, amphibian, reptile, avian, mammmal, man?

OklaERdoc, that's not what that passage is saying - and you know that.

sorry, I did confuse you with another poster who is a reformed atheist. My apologies.

jimimd, apparently we are both arrogant because we ask questions and don't accept the standard "god did it" answer.

Why is Sermo Doc 79's interpretation of the passage so wrong?

Fair enough Sermo Doc 9----You won't kill me as a "christian"---------BUT --------you might kill me as a "soldier of christ " I still fear religious zealots just the same--------should I up my Prozac ?

Actually your interpretation of "relative" is still a bit kookie....
I'm not sure you appreciate the "relative" value of 3 billion compared to the speck of time of any one's life.... or of human history....

3 billion years is plenty of time for chance mutations and natural selection...
The first steps would understandably be slower....

Sermo Doc 45 - no, as a soldier in the US Army SF.

An increase in Prozac might help - might help us all!

Sermo Doc 27 - first off - I'm not an atheist! At least, not yet. I would label myself a deist - but my notion of God is admittedly undefined and pretty vague - something bigger than my imagination and completely outside myself.

I think the Bible is ridiculous...the Great Flood - come on, give me a break. Two of every kind of animal.......righhhhttttttttt.

Can atheists be "good"? SURE, why can't they? Are believers only "good" because they fear going to Hell? That's a pretty disingenuous reason to behave, isn't it?

One of the reasons that we all WANT to believe is, i think, the notion of just simply DYING and POOF - that's it ...scares us all. I'm cool with that...but it took a while.

I don't have all the answers, no one does, the Bible SURE doesn't. Otherwise - all those verses I posted would all be 100% true and the world would BE heaven.

I go back to my previous question-----------What is it about the human intellect that allows it to demand specifics,data,reproducible proofs in much of our thought processes---but in others [religion,god ,afterlife ] we just throw out rational thought and we "just believe it "----- I'm reading Richard Dawkins" " The God Delusion " now but this question is left unanswered------ although we are 'Brainwashed" at home and in society from our earliest thought processes.

"But, let's assume for a moment that there is no God, no nothing. Then, on what basis does one live one's life?" Sermo Doc 27

OK, lets for the sake of an argument say that tomorrow someone proved beyond any doubt that there was no God, would go start robbing, killing, raping, molesting children or just continue as you now lead your life?

Would anyone else who believes in God change how they live if it were proved there was no God?

"another awesome wonposet thread and post" Sermo Doc 15

"What hath Wonposet wrought" with this thread

I've got a much more important question. With all these posts and all this activity, when will we see a bump in our Sermo rank? Mine's been static for like 4 months! It's a little depressing.

Sermo Doc 45, can I borrow some of your Prozac?

Sermo Doc 9 -

Some might say your ranking is God's doing and some might say you are pretty rank ;-)

Especially after a 16 hour day like today!

Christians (and others) often try to "baffle with bullshit"...

Sermo Doc 9 - try to explain to me why this supposed QUOTE from JESUS doesn't mean EXACTLY what it seems to mean:


"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."
"

"whatever you ask...I will do it...I will do it" He says it TWICE - is it ambiguous? Did He leave out "only if it is God's will, though"?????

Sermo Doc 79, I will - tomorrow. I'm going to bed. I'm not seeing clearly anymore and I'm getting a bit punchy - so you may end up with a sarcastically humorous answer tonight.

One thing - context is king - so read it in the context in which it was spoken - don't pull it out of context. I'll go back and review it and give you an answer tomorrow.

Sermo Doc 9 - I don't really believe your question/point about thermodynamics!! You overlook a BASIC part of that - it only aopplies to a CLOSED system. The earth is NOT a closed system - energy is constantly being input by the Sun - to name only one source!! The earth is an OPEN system - you can't apply the entropy "clause" to the earth.

I don't see what context it could be in that would change it's CLEAR MESSAGE - but it'll be entertaining to see how you try to rectify it anyhow. ;)

I have been trying to shed light on this lofty discussion, and I find that modern times call for modern solutions, so I once again will turn to the cinema with the "Life of Brian". Frankly, I am surprized that no one has mentioned this, especially the song at the end, "Always Look at the Bright Side of Life".

There is no eternal life in the religious sense. Religion is hogwash. There are no modern prophets because today we treat people who have "visions" and "speak to God" and "receive messages from God" with proper anti-psychotic medications. Yes, I'm saying all "prophets", were just unrecognized schizophrenics.

I wonder why God put nipples on Adam.

"I wonder why God put nipples on Adam"

For Steve to enjoy you dimwit !!!!

Obviously neither Adam nor Eve had belly buttons.....

Here's some more food for thought:

No one (besides little kids) believes in Santa Claus. No one outside the Mormon church believes Joseph Smith's story. No one outside the Muslim faith believes the story of Mohammed and Gabriel and the winged horse. No one outside the Christian faith believes in Jesus' divinity, miracles, resurrection, etc.
Therefore, the question I would ask you to consider right now is simple: Why is it that human beings can detect fairy tales with complete certainty when those fairy tales come from other faiths, but they cannot detect the fairy tales that underpin their own faith? Why do they believe their chosen fairy tale with unrelenting passion and reject the others as nonsense?

Sermo Doc 5, Okla and others - either you intentionally missed my point or I was too ambiguous.

What is good? Truly define it in scientific terms and principles. You are not taking the question in the light in which it was asked. If, we are merely our genetic codes, then any action that would lead to promulgation of that code would need to be seen as good - infidelity, polygamy, rape, stealing food, murder in some cases, war in others.

Now, given the fact that we live in "civilized" society, it is possible that some of those actions could lead to retribution - jail time etc which might negate the effect of code propagation. So, good/evil is relative to specific situations.

But again, these are all simply constructs. Good and evil, right and wrong are made up human ideas. Certainly, different societies throughout time have shown that they do what they consider good - eg infanticide - and are perplexed when someone says you shouldn't do that.

Is God a construct as well and irrational? Well, maybe as defined. But, maybe not. But, the construct of God is as likely as a concept of right and wrong.

Buddhists and others have Principles based on a belief in how the Universe works. Again, merely human constructs that have no rational explanations.

Undoubtedly, Killing in the Name is a huge problem. We create artificial divides throughout humanity that are also illogical - skin color, sexual orientation, where you were born, which football team do you like. Divide, divide, divide. Now, in a world without religion, do you think there would be more or less war? I would argue more, because there is no reason not to do everything you can to ensure the survival of your specific genetic code.

There are a lot of concepts in there, and given how my initial one's were misinterpreted, I am happy to explain point by point.

I am in no position of authority to judge souls or goodness. I am not attempting to belittle or offend anyone. And, I certainly agree with Okla and others that there is a lot in the Bible that is contradictory. Paul tells people how we most wear our hair, Deuteronomy says you can't go to Temple if you've been neutered, there are two creation stories, what are the Nephilim and so on.

Addendum: in terms of war, I am speaking of antiquity.

Further, what is interesting to me is how vastly different societies have all evolved intellectually to have similar underlying principles. Essentially, they feel they have the right answer to how best ensure the survival and goodness of their people. It is a pattern. Why does it exist? Is there a single Universal Principle? Call it God or call it Nothing, but the pattern is there.

I am surprised at this debate that will lead nowhere.Especially with the world events going on around us.
There are over a Billion Moslems on this earth.The vast majority of them are true believers in God.But they also have some lunatic radical extremists that carry this a step further as suicide bombers whose aim is to establish a moslem empire that will rule the world as during the realm of the Caliphs.This is all done in the name of Allah where womens rights are violated with suppression of dissidents.
I believe in God. But the God I believe in is a fair and just One.Not intent on vengance.
So if we like to argue ,lets argue about something constructive

But Sermo Doc 81, what would be the fun in that?

The point of debate is to define concepts and ideals. The ability to argue either side, to see others perspectives, to keep an open mind - all these are good things. Again, this is so much more benign and constructive, IMHO, than various political and ideological debates on this site.

Have you ever noticed how some of the most apparently impossible (all miracles are impossible without God. That's part of what 'miracle' means) of Jesus' miracles are either public (e.g. the feeding of the 5000) or are amply fortified with authenticating detail? Surely the greatest miracles are the resurrections. Apart from Jesus' own resurrection we have three reports in the Gospel accounts. You will recall the case of Jairus' daughter. Jairus was a synagogue ruler in Galilee. Synagogue rulers in Galilee were not exactly thick on the ground back then. (There were probably only about 50 houses in first century Nazareth). If the report were false it would have been easily repudiated. Then there was the widow of Nain's son. Nain was a tiny village. There could have been only one widow there about that time whose son predeceased her. If such an event took place every resident of Nain would have known all about it. It would have been madness to make the thing up if it didn't happen. Then there was the raising of Lazarus. Not everyone in Jerusalem would have known someone in Bethany (though it was quite close by), but it's a good bet everyone in Bethany would have known someone in Jerusalem. And everyone in Bethany would have known either Mary or Martha or Lazarus. If it were claimed that Lazarus was raised from the dead, and he was not, in fact raised, it would have been a particularly damaging lie, a lie useless to perpetuate. If these claims were lies why were enough details supplied to make it possible for the claims to be disproved? In 1872 a German archaeological team digging in Bethany unearthed a family burial crypt 18 centuries old. The tomb was sealed. Upon the seal were three names: Mary, Martha and Lazarus. Fairy tales do not normally leave artifacts in the ground.

"No one (besides little kids) believes in Santa Claus. No one outside the Mormon church believes Joseph Smith's story. No one outside the Muslim faith believes the story of Mohammed and Gabriel and the winged horse. No one outside the Christian faith believes in Jesus' divinity, miracles, resurrection, etc.
Therefore, the question I would ask you to consider right now is simple: Why is it that human beings can detect fairy tales with complete certainty when those fairy tales come from other faiths, but they cannot detect the fairy tales that underpin their own faith? Why do they believe their chosen fairy tale with unrelenting passion and reject the others as nonsense? " - Sermo Doc 79

And what of the fairy tale of evolution? Really think it through again (you guys keep repeating the same stuff, so I may as well) - the right nucleic acids in exactly the right proportions with the right lipids and carbohydrates - all with no impurities (we've all had chemistry, and know what even the slightest amount of impurities do to a chemical reaction, melting point, boiling point, etc...) - in some sort of container that attracts electricity at the right voltage, amperage, and for the exact amount of time needed, in the right environment with an exactly correct temperature, mix of atmospheric gases, light, and nutrients that all of a sudden creates a one celled organism with a cell wall, the ability to make energy, reproduce, repair, and spread its genetic material around. It stays this way for 3 or 4 billion years - this tender life form in a hostile environment with no protection - and the environment stays stable for 3 or 4 billion years (ours isn't stable for a month!) before any real changes came about - and then the only real change was a .....nucleus....for another billion or 2 years.

And you call this true, provable, demonstrable, replicate-able science? Intelligent and educated people really believe this? And this isn't stuff fairy tales are made of? Where's the proof? At least scriptural accounts are provable and have been validated by numerous historical (the vast majority of which are extra-biblical sources) and archeological, accounts.

Who is the delusional one? Who believes in fairy tales?

At least the accounts of scripture were witnessed and are historically recorded by many secular historians.

I will get to your question Sermo Doc 79...you're not going to like my answer. :-)

Hey-----Overnight the increased dose of Prozac kicked in----I'm happy this A.M.----I'm going to work-----I'm going to retire from this blog---- I'm still reading Dawkins etc. for clues but I really don't care anymore what others think------ Thank you----Prozac !!!!!!

"Call it God or call it Nothing, but the pattern is there" Sermo Doc 27

Call it survival for a society.

If society has rules against stealing, killing, etc then each person can concentrate more on being productive which helps the society and fighting off invaders which protects the society.

By having a God impose these rules, rather than just another mere mortal, fallible person, it is easier to enforce it, especially if eternal life is a reward for following the rules.

An organized religion, with an appointed leader who speaks for God, can be a way to do this.

Sermo Doc 9 - I'm sure I "won't like" your answer because it will be convoluted and evasive and will make little to no sense. And before you say something like 'He was talking to a specific audience and it didn't apply to EVERYONE" (as I've heard before), please recall that the very famous John 3:16 verse is from the same book.

And, in terms of the "fairy tale" of evolution - every fact of evolution theory is backed by hard evidence - whether it be solid fossils or DNA evidence - you DO "believe" in genetics, doctor, don't you?

Please tell me that you don't SERIOUSLY believe in the great Flood? Noah's Ark? If you do, just do some simple figuring about the science of it and the global consequences of a freshwater "flood" covering the globe to the depth of about 5 miles (the WHOLE earth was covered - which would include Mt Everest).

And how does finding a tomb with some common names PROVE that Lazarus was raised from the dead? Quite a leap of "logic", I'd say.

BTW - if any believer took me up on my challenge to pray away all the disease in the world last night - it didn't work!! Please try again.....here's a suggestion:


Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.


You pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways. Will anything happen? Of course not. If prayers like this worked, Christians would have prayed every disease on the planet into extinction centuries ago. But if God were to exist, why would he ignore such a worthy prayer?

My Sermo rank still hasn't changed. Maybe I need more Prozac.

How did the flood kill plants and animals which live in the water?

Why are we still finding new species if everything was on the Ark?

Why hasn't the second coming happened since Jesus promised repeatedly that it would occur during the lifetime of those he was speaking to?

Did Adam have an umbilicus? If so, why?

Evolution is still occurring. Just look at bacterial resistance to antibiotics. It's a heritable change resulting from survival of the fittest.

I took a trip to the Galapagos Islands this summer. The evidence for evolution and continuing evolution I saw there was overwhelming.

"Evolution is still occurring. Just look at bacterial resistance to antibiotics. It's a heritable change resulting from survival of the fittest." - Sermo Doc 13

That's adaptation, not evolution. They are not changing into elephants, they are adapting to their environs. They are still bacteria.

Remove the drug pressure - they'll revert to wild type - and remain bacteria.

Everything was created "according to its kind". It's still that way. A lot of diversity within any given lifeform (species) - shows the pleasure and glory of God, but no inter-lifeform migration.

Humans are still humans, dogs still dogs, birds still birds. You don't see any bird-men do you? Or perhaps dog-horses? Not even in the fossil record.

If the flood happened,why do we not find all types of "modern forms" mixed up with dinosaur fossils, etc.....since everything was drowned at the same time? Why are there layers with different animals? Men and dogs should be found with dinosaurs and giants.

Actually transitional forms between dinosaurs and birds have been found. So birds haven't always been birds.

New species have arisen. No, a dog hasn't changed into a cat but wolves have changed into dogs. Evolution is a gradual spectrum of changes not a sudden leap. The changes occur over thousands or millions of years. Our brains have a very hard time understanding that time frame.

And why aren't ALL prayers answered as Jesus promised MANY TIMES?

If you reject evolution and accept creationism then you must also reject most of biology,chemitry,physics,etc.....

I'm starting to think eternal life might be this thread

I believe evolution took place. What we will never understand is the beginning of the universe. What happened before the "Big Bang?"
Did something come from nothing?
Maybe believing in God could be viewed as a "cop out", but I think there is a Higher Power that was there at the beginning, and will go on, long past the universe and certainly humans.

Yes, Dr Lou, the thread will go on eternally, and 4 generations from now, when we are all gone, the thread will be continued by future doctors... : )

its quite amusing that we don't even know the day and yr of Jesus's birth. really, the winter solstice??? and it wasn't exactly 2009 yrs (or 2010) yrs ago either. this Frontline piece was truly informative --no one really talks about jesus's brother ( how could the church as then you get into the discussion of immaculate conception and why this sibling and not the other and maybe they were just another jewish nuclear family). also i found the most fascinating was the establishment of the catholic church which ws needed to force out (undermine) many other Christian sects. in addition there were many more gospels from other disciples and individuals who thought they had the story down pat.
we are all capable of believing in miracles but the capability of miracles happening still eludes us (still a disciple of Jacque Monod's "Chance and Neccessity"--everything happens by chance when certain neccessary conditions prevail). if one of the rationaiizations of eternity/g-d is that there had tobe something to start/form all this, then what is the explanation of the creation of g-d?--is it G-ds all the way down?

i think Adam was Na'vi--no placenta. and i think Eve went for the brazillian wax after the apple bite.

As a kid I always wondered why Christmas was always on Dec. 25 but Easter moved around so much. How long was Jesus' life?

Turns out Easter is determined by the first full moon following the spring equinox. This was established by the Council at Nicea hundreds of years after the death of Jesus.

What's with all the apparent sun/moon worship?

The large number of comments on this post suggests that we physicians who deal with life and death every day are interested in death and the life hereafter. Some have strong religious beliefs; others don't accept the beliefs of any single faith but embrace agnosticism, atheism, humanism. Still others seem insecure when they encounter others who know that their faith gives them a firm foundation that for them makes life worth living.

Is life worth living? Should we live for the moment and for pleasure and for personal gain without consideration of the needs and wants of others who are not part of our circle of family and friends? Those with strong religious convictions, Christians, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, and others can answer yes to the first question and no to the second. So can those with strong personal ethical beliefs. We don't need to be part of an organized religion in order for our religion to be effective. As long as we give more to the world than we take from it, we will have a purpose to our lives that makes living worthwhile.

There is nothing irrational in having an irrational sense of security based upon faith. We all start out as children with an irrational sense of security in our parents. Those who maintain this sense of security and build upon it often live happier lives.

Norton34 has told me that he assumes everyone has an illusion of security in order to function in life, and religion is one means to build and sustain that illusion. Some people have panic disorders when their sense of security has been weakened. Therefore, panic disorders are "irrational" because they are the result of losing the irrational sense of security normally gained in childhood.


www.appleseeds.org



Whether we believe in reincarnation, in eternal life, in a heaven and a hell does not really matter. Those who fill their lives with faith and good deeds fulfill their lives as they live and sometimes make a heaven out of hell.

For those who question eternal life, the expectation of salvation can give value to their lives. If they live with the knowledge of salvation, their lives will be better even if they had false expectations.

There is nothing wrong with doubt. Even Mother Teresa was plagued with doubt about her faith throughout her life.

in.reuters.com

archives.cnn.com

homepage.mac.com

Sometimes I wonder whether original sin is a calamitous invention of the church. It doesn't really matter whether it is because our lives are imperfect, and if we expect salvation and eternal life only as a result of deeds without faith, we will fall short in our expectations.

Thank you, Sermo Doc 54, for discussing the historical Jesus.

We need not to get too much concerned about precise historical details. Look at the accounts of the destruction of the World Trade Center, a few years ago. Many people gave different accounts of what they saw, but the discrepancies in these accounts do not change what happened.

We cannot even agree on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, one of the most vivid events of my childhood. My entire generation shared the experience.

It is obvious to me that no religious texts were intended to be taken literally. God created the heavens and the earth in seven days. How ridiculous this seems until we realize the two great lights, the sun and the moon were not created until the fourth day. Therefore, these days were not solar days and could have lasted long enough to allow evolution.

Inconsistencies in religions do not override their benefits or obviate the need to look at their strong points.

The book, A Gathering of Saints, describes the duplicity involved in the creation of the Book of Mormon.

www.irr.org

I would strongly recommend reading this book or listening to it on Dick Estell's Radio Reader (NPR).

Reading this book did not undermine my respect for my many Mormon friends. Their high ethical standards have inspired me most of my life. Bob and Clara Murray were amongst my father's best friends. They were the first Mormons I met. They ran the Wayward Winds Motel in Tucson, Arizona on Miracle Mile. Unlike the nearby "No-tell Motel," the Wayward Winds was a family motel. The Murrays did not allow shuffleboard and closed the pool on Sundays and attracted families who returned year after year. I am still in contact with some people I met there. Whenever I flew to Arizona, Bob Murray picked me up at the airport and made me a part of his family. The Murrays treated all guests as they treated us and put serving others before making money.

Why doesn't Jesus heal amputees?

I believe free will is one of our greatest gifts from God. How boring life would be if everything we did was determined in advance by an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipercipient creator. We are free to choose our actions and to suffer the consequences of them.

There are some prayers that God does not answer. If you pray for sunshine and fair weather, you might be praying for the lack of rain much needed by farmers. If you pray that you find a wallet filled with money, you are praying that someone loses it.

Despite the difficulties I have recently endured, I believe God has and will continue to answer prayers that are appropriate.

"... shows the pleasure and glory of God...."

That and the Will of God and God can do anything (like make rocks a few thousand years old with carbon dating of millions to fool future scientists) are all answers one can use to explain things that do not make sense to others ..... the "nice" thing about these "reasons" are they can be used to explain or justify anything anyone wants.

Sermo Doc 79, "every fact of evolution is backed by hard evidence"

Evolution is NOT fact, it is a reasonable HYPOTHESIS based on a series of facts and a few assumptions. Assumptions such as: Nonliving things gave rise to living material and have not done so again since. And invertebrates transmigrated to become vertebrates.

And although evolution has its basis in scientific fact, evolution is not science -- it is a scientific hypothesis. Let us say that we could perform an experiment in which given the ideal circumstances an invertebrate was transformed into a vertebrate. Even if we could verify that this was possible (which thus far, we cannot), it does not prove that this is how it happened historically. You are still relying on some degree of asumption and speculation to arrive at your conclusion. Science is reproducible. History is not. Evolution and creationism and intellegent design are all historical hypotheses.

Now, this faith in evolution does not disprove the hypothesis, but there are many missing links, many gaps in the evolutionary chain. Just as we may desire more evidence of God (you would like him to heal the world or salvage an amputee), we also desire more evidence of evolution, and we desire more evidence for OJ Simpson. But at some point, we must reach our conclusions/assumptions based not on the evidence that we wish for, but based on the evidence at hand.

Thanks, Wonposet.
I believe when we pray for something, it should be for God's will for us, not our will for God.

The need for a spiritual life is not the problem. Religion is the problem.
Religions have rules and a power structure created by men. The result of religious beliefs is an us vs. them mentality, the imposition of one set of rules and beliefs on others and a dependence on magical thinking. Perhaps humans do have an irrational need for security which can be filled for children by parents or gods. But shouldn't we grow up, recognize the irrational nature of the constructs we or others have created (religions) and leave that childish thinking behind?

There is nothing wrong with contemplating our place in the universe or considering moral and ethical behavior or believing in something greater than us that we can not understand. To do otherwise would be supremely arrogant. What is wrong is blindly following arbitrary rules or worse attempting to force your beliefs on to other humans. Religions are ALL problematic for that reason.

Chili - and so are societal constructs: Socialism, Fascism, Conservatism, Liberalism - we certainly don't need religion to have wars or fights. But, I will agree that religion has been fraught with debacles such as the massacre of the Cathars. The whole Council of Nicene history, hell the celibacy issue for priests wasn't even started until the second millennium.

So Sermo Doc 5 was the only one who attempted to answer my question. Let's say good and bad are determined by societal needs. Well, which society is best? Who are we to say that what we view as genocide, is actually good when viewed in terms of one particular society? What is the basis of this thought process? Genocide and Xenophobia might be good, by your definition Sermo Doc 5.

Wonposet, great post and lots of interesting thoughts.

Wow wonposet I have a day off and come back and a zillion posts. You really know how to hit the hot topics.
Have read most of the posts, if I read all of them they will be carbon dating my body that is found still at my lap top.
I personally pray for God's will to be done.
As far as evolution it is a personal interest. Since a fairly accurate dating for the earth has been done it seems from the recent research there simply is not enough time.
Michael Behe and Stephen Meyer discuss this at length in their books and back it up with real numbers. The randomness required for random mutation even with environmental stresses kills evolution as the only answer. This is not to say it does not occur. There are buckets of data saying this, but is it the only answer, a single unifying solution- probably not. Molecular biology has essentially discovered to much for it to explain.
I do not try to pretend to convert anyone, I have personal beliefs, but they are personal.

Sermo Doc 27,
I also think the societal constructs you have mentioned are wrong and dangerous for the same reasons.

I also don't think that good and bad are determined by societal needs alone, nor by individual needs alone. I do think the answers reside within us and an external deity is not needed. Are we fully aware of the answers? Obviously not. But we are not the "finished product". Humans are still evolving.

Sermo Doc 27 -

It seems most early societies were small homogeneous groups/tribes and so racial, ethnic, religious (God or Gods) differences were absent. It is only as societies increased in size that the other problems arose ... different races, different ethnicity, and different God(s).

I agree with Sermo Doc 5, most of the detrimental societal constructs (including religions) either weren't necessary or didn't matter until different groups of humans began living in close quarters.

And God and the Ten Commandments and religions have not solved those problems over thousands of years since they arose.

So, here another question ..... if we can explain (not prove but give a good rational explanation based on our level of knowledge) the origin of Earth and life and mankind, and if we can explain why most societies have similar rules regarding stealing,etc, and as we have found with increasing knowledge that we can explain more and more which seemed to have no reason except God or Gods, doesn't there seem to be less of reason to need a God.

"I personally pray for God's will to be done."


This makes absolutely NO SENSE in the Christian (or any other) tradition. If God exists and is omnipotent - what use is there for us to pray for His will to be done? It's HIS will - whether we want it or not - surely our prayers wouldn't change His plan?

The quotes I cited are crystal clear - there is no disclaimer about "only if God agrees with what we ask for"......I can accept "God", I can not accept the Bible - it just is way too inconsistent and nonsensical.

I really, really hope that OPEN MINDED people that are following this post thoroughly peruse the whywontgodhealamputees website....please do yourself a favor. I will say no more as I have said enough.

Thank you.

Sermo Doc 5--you must have watched the show too as the scholars were keen to point out that it wasn't till "civilization" progressed and the cities formed and became larger and attracted other diverse groups that religion (esp christianity) took off.

but womposet has it right--its never the specifics that matter (or rather why let facts get in the way). people feel comfortable with faith and handing over a lot of responsibility to deities.
evolution is theory that withstands scrutiny from our best scientists. creationism, ID or Thetas from scientology do not. it goes back to that old Woody Allen joke of the brother who thinks he's a chicken and the family is torn on whether they should get him therapy--as you see they can use the eggs.

Sermo Doc 4 -

Have not watched it yet, but I TIVO'ed it ..... my daughter just left to go back to her home ...... in Minnaeapolis where it is in single digits as opposed to low 70's here .. and now will have time to watch it.

The Evolution of Faith

What's the first thing you do if the ground beneath you starts to rumble and the walls begin to shake? Grab the kids and run? Check your home-insurance policy? Fall on your knees and pray for deliverance? All logical enough reactions, but not your very first one. Instead, even when faced with imminent disaster, you'll spend precious time asking, "What was that?" It's called the cognitive imperative, the uniquely human, hardwired instinct to link cause with effect that gave us a vital evolutionary advantage over other animal species. After all, the noise could be just a passing truck and nothing to lose precious sleep over.

Delineating how we react to an earthquake is just one example of the cognitive imperative described in Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast, British scientist Lewis Wolpert's enquiry into the evolutionary origins of belief. If the theme sounds familiar, that's because the search for scientific roots of religious faith is a hot, and heatedly debated, issue of the day. In his 2004 book The God Gene, U.S. molecular biologist Dean Hamer claimed to have located one of the genes he said was responsible for spirituality. Last month, the American philosopher and evolutionary theorist Daniel Dennett provoked more controversy with Breaking the Spell, in which he cast religion in terms of memes — cultural ideas that can spread, mutate and survive in our minds, whether or not they are good for us. Meanwhile in Oxford, England, researchers at the Centre for the Science of the Mind are subjecting volunteers to severe pain to see if religious belief can help them cope with physical suffering.

As a developmental biologist at London's University College, and one of Britain's loudest champions of the public understanding of science, Wolpert covers genes, memes, pain and various other angles in his book. But rather than just arm wrestling with God's faithful, his book attempts to survey the science underpinning all intuitive beliefs, including religion, that humans stubbornly cling to, in spite of the best efforts of rational enquiry to displace them: credence in the paranormal, magic and superstition; faith in alternative-health therapies; the conviction that sooner or later we're bound to win a lottery jackpot. Our belief engine, Wolpert concludes, works on wholly unscientific principles: "It prefers quick decisions, it is bad with numbers, loves representativeness and sees patterns where there is only randomness. It is too often influenced by authority and it has a liking for mysticism."

It is no coincidence that the stubbornest of our "irrational" beliefs correspond to our fears of the unknown, the unknowable and the unstoppable — of disease, death and natural disaster. Although Wolpert is a passionate promoter of science, he still recognizes that religion has its benefits and that in some things "reason will never triumph over superstition." The Nobel-prizewinning physicist Niels Bohr once explained why he kept a horseshoe nailed to his wall. It was not because he believed it would bring him good luck, but because he'd been told it would do so even if he didn't believe it. "How can one argue with such logic?" said Bohr. Wolpert, who took the title of his book from Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking Glass, in which the White Queen explains to Alice that believing in impossible things is simply a matter of practice, seems happy to agree.

See link below as the article is a few characters over the limit

www.time.com

From Through the Looking Glass, Chapter 5

Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said: "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

Sermo Doc 4--what show are you talking about--- from your post it sounds alot like what good old Siggy Freud theorized in Civilation and its Discontents. This is a slim book and very readable. One of his best, i might add.

Speaking of books, I find it appropriate to put in a plug for the book club I had been talking about, for I feel we are demonstrating what Dr. Viktor Frankl was talking about in his book--"Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning". Dr. Frankl,(a Psychiatrist and Auswitz survivor) developed a field of psychotherapy called logotherapy. Dr. Frankl's premise is that the search for meaning is a basic drive. I would say from the number of comments here that we are demonstrating this. His therapy is called an existential therapy. this means that a belief in God is not a requirement for a need toserch for meaning., although this is an answer for some.

I think this would be a good book, although there have been other suggestions, such as "Waiting for Godot".

By the Way, "The Woman's Bible" was edited by Elizabeth Cady Stanton for those of you who might be interested.

Here is whayt it says in the blurb on the back cover " Having heard the names of Eve and Jezebel invoked in response to her pleas for woman suffrage, Elizabeth Cady Stanton determined that the Bible was the primary cause of the subjugation of women. Far from being the word of God, ""these degrading ideas of woman emanated from the brain of man.""

In the Woman's Bible Stanton and a committee of prominent feminists scrutinize the Bible, placing events in their historical context,interpreting passages as both allegory and fact, and comparing them to the myths of other cultures."

en.wikipedia.org

There are patterns, like it or not.

On the subject of books, I just finished "Half the Sky" which examines the situation of women in the world and it's impact on cultures and economies. It's very interesting and also deeply disturbing. The conditions under which women and girls exist and the unbelievably low status they have in many societies CURRENTLY is shocking and appalling.

And yes there are patterns in nature and our brains seemed programmed to percieve them. Look at the current American Express ads which show "faces" occurring in everyday objects.

Concerning Evolution:
I remembering learning in "Comparative Anatomy" in college:
"Embryology follows Phylogeny."
There was a great program on TV last week about Darwin. His insights that connected
the dots were remarkable. His "Origin of the Species" was published in
1859, before our Civil War. His insights are still valid today.
The early human embryo looks similar to that of many other species,including a chicken. Early snake embryos have rudimentary legs. They evolved from ancestors
that did have legs. Modern DNA research has found the DNA "switch" that turns
the leg gene off.
Natural selection does favor the survival of individuals that help them succeed in
their enviroment. However; it also works to help that species survive. Genetic features
that improve social cooperation in a species; should also help assure the survival
of that species. Therefore; there may be a genetic basis for all those universal
truths such as "The Golden Rule." A genetic bias for the belief in "God" might
well help a group ensure cooperative behavior.

I think this is a question many people think about at some point in their lives.

I was raised Catholic, and went to Catholic school until the end of the 9th grade. I also had the pleasure of a great aunt who was a nun. This did not mean that I was like a lamb- I gave the teachers many debates over the items they were teaching and certainly more gray hair along their paths.

I agree with many- I am certain that if there is eternal life, there won't be just one religious denomination present in the occupants.

There is also something to say about those who believe in past lives. Many believe that their soul comes back until karma has been balanced and then the soul may move on to the next experience.

Personally, I like to believe there is something after this experience. It is quite depressing to think that our loved ones who are no longer alive in this world are just gone. I am the oldest and only living child in my family. I remember many conversations about the other two children who came after me. My parents and I would often wonder what they would have looked like, what they would have enjoyed doing for fun, and what they would have chosen to do for their path in life. I always envisioned my younger sister to be the artist type who was thin, beautiful, and wore black all the time. Now that my favorite grandparents are both passed away, I envision them to be together and cruising around to their favorite places in their beige Bonneville having a great time. Their pictures are around our home, and each time I see them, I remember the occasion when the photo was taken. My favorite is a shot my grandmother took of my grandfather and I both wearing farmer's jeans. I have his pair hanging in my closet now.

I hope there is something after this life, but if not, I will continue to try my best to live life to the best of my ability.

yeah, life can be quite depressing--especially for those of us who don't get to live very long due to famine, disease, wars, --and acts of g-d.

tcl--it was on PBS (Frontline) a wk or 2 ago.

(Sermo Doc 79 Emergency Medicine Posted Dec 31, 2009 at 2:02 PM)
"This makes absolutely NO SENSE in the Christian (or any other) tradition. If God exists and is omnipotent - what use is there for us to pray for His will to be done? It's HIS will - whether we want it or not - surely our prayers wouldn't change His plan?"

Fiat voluntas tua sicut in caelo et in terra.

Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

This prayer has been the object of discussion in many commentaries.

www.gospeltruth.net

It is not as inconsistent as it sounds, for God has given us free will to do His(Her) will or our will. The prayer suggests we desire our will and that of God to be the same and believe they can be.

The God to whom we pray is infallible and can desire no wrong. It is human failing that separates our will from His (Her).

Therefore, the prayer, "Thy will be done" is a prayer for love, justice, and peace throughout the world and for an end to whatever separates us from the Kingdom of God,

I love having God's support in my daily life. I love knowing that my parents made the great confession (belief in Jesus Christ), and that I will see them again. I love communicating with God in prayer-- it's a two way conversation. But I do admit that following God's instructions gets expensive sometimes. Worth it? YES

So when He said there is eternal life, I gotta believe it!

A puzzling thought just occurred to me...

If we are the result of intelligent design, why do genetic defects or diseases exist? Some diseases I could understand, such as those that are the result of treating the body badly (alcoholic cirrhosis, lung cancer secondary to smoking, heart disease due to overeating) or trauma, but why childhood leukemia? Why congenital heart defects? Or cystic fibrosis? Or any of the numerous other conditions which arise randomly or spontaneously? Seems like there are some major design flaws there.

.... and why do some pregnancies end with spontaneous abortion?

Don't have faith, wish I did. I fear death.

When you look at the universe (however you want to define that domain) from sub-atomic particles to atoms -->molecules --> cells -->tissues -->life forms from simple to incredibly complex --> earth's ecological interactions -->solar system-->galaxies; the geology, chemistry, physics, etc., and see the order, interaction, and function, and really observe all these phenomena objectively and scientifically, how can you NOT believe in God? Indeed, the leap of FAITH required to attribute these to several gazillion really lucky coincidences is much larger than thae faith required to believe that a Supreme Being created them and continues to manage them.
The late Dr. Henry Eyring (professor of chemistry at Princeton and later Univ. of Utah), who published the Absolute Rate [of chemical reactions] Theory, still in use today, did the math to demonstrate the odds against enough energy spontaneously concentrating itself to form our sun. Answer -- too many zeroes to fit in here-to-one against.
At a meeting of scientific luminaries once, Dr. Erying posed the question, "Who wound up the universe?" No one ventured an answer. He repeated the question later at his dinner table. The (then) president of Cal-Tech responded simply and quietly, "I, like you, am a religious man."
So, the existence of God and of spiritual elements in our universe is a scientific fact verified by many whose spiritual senses have allowed them sensory experiences therewith. No one can be forced to exercise those senses and perceive those elements. (Unfortunately, a number of "religious" people throughout history have not understood this and have sought to force "religion", as they were pleased to call it, by the sword, etc.)
For me, there is not a separate box for true science & true religion; both are (should be) dedicated to seeking truth (not propogating a philosophy or a domain). There are not separate "truths". God is the ultimate scientist -- Hello? He made the universe!
I believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. When you realize how many hands (some unscrupulous) the Bible's writings went through prior to arriving at its present form, it is another evidence of God's guiding hand.
Sermo Doc 45 -- Yes, I have received spiritual promptings (revelations, if you prefer) to help me help my patients. Your disbelieving my experience, and theirs, does not invalidate the experience. I see blue just as clearly whether or not others choose to keep their eyes closed. I can't make you see or feel, nor will I try.
clinicat -- yes, eternal means "no beginning and no end". Our lives (some elements of who and what we are) existed prior to mortality and will continue after mortality. Our earth life is just a spot on the continuum of eternity of our existence, during which we have opportunities to add to and improve who and what we are...or not. We are given experiences (yes, by a loving, and watchful Heavenly Father) that are custom-tailored to help us rise to our potential. Some of them seem harsh, some cruel. The difference lies in how we choose to cope.
Sermo Doc 45 -- I have heard children and their families express gratitude for lessons learned and experiences gained while going through the ordeal of cancer treatment. How can this be? It's all what you choose to make of it...or see...or not.

"So, the existence of God and of spiritual elements in our universe is a scientific fact verified by many whose spiritual senses have allowed them sensory experiences therewith" Sermo Doc 65

I guess we view "scientific fact" a little different and that we differ on the number of senses we have .... I thought we only had five senses and not a 6th spiritual sense.

Perhaps you can cite some peer-reviewed scientific journals where that scientific fact and the 6th sense are presented and documented.

Having faith and totally believing in something does not make it a scientific fact.

Sad. Very sad. Very sad indeed. Weep for me you powerless ones.........

I have read everything in this thread hoping to acquire some new piece of knowledge. I have not found it. I have only confirmed what I already knew. Nobody knows any more than anybody else when it comes to the one thing we all seek out.

Like St Thomas Aquinas I will retreat to my bed unembellished and to wake up in a new year with faith and hope as my sole comforters.

May you all have a happy new year. I have nothing to offer any of you.

'Dust thou art and unto dust thou shalt return'.Death is absolute.I believe it is irrational to believe in LIFE AFTER DEATH.

The new year is hear, I too search for enlightenment and a good dose of coffee!

... sincerest thoughts, honest opinions, convictions expressed on these wonposet thread that challenges brilliant but unsettled minds all to be presented them above or below... .... helloooooo :-) is anyone listening :-) !!!!!

that 'perchance! hope! for 'afterlife, heaven or hell or being transformed,enlightened to a princess, lou'sgertie or a cockraoch exist, or ashes to spray at he great sea

but then, a glimpse of TRUTH in JESUS CHRIST by some , or uncertainties bewidered, lost, offered by mysticism, atheism, agnosticsm, pan'isms' in differrent forms!!!

wonposet, whats the verdict, our out of dc messenger ...
to escape the onslaught of health care change (that have 'obamanized' the failed treatment based evidence and driven docs to (insanity... pursue further trickled reimbursement perhaps heavenly help and docs dangling, clinging for dear afterlife mystery!

... or needs fedex delivery before 2012, if gas is too expensive while delays vacation trip to decrease the trillion deficit ???

ps. may ask abdul has a free us sanctioned pass to travel to deliver from yemen and comrades hussein!

ps blessings and prayers to of sermo docs as we start 2010!

Sermo Doc 79, in answer to your question, other than the answer you already posed (audience specific), I don't know. Most think that Christ was empowering the apostles with specific gifts with which to continue His work after His death.

Every one, save John, was martyred - crucified upside down, beheaded, boiled in oil, shot through with arrows, stoned, hung by the neck, etc.....yet the church grew and spread - not by force of arms, but by the power of the gospel.

Indeed, Sermo Doc 15, this post may be eternal since the controversies discussed in its comments have continued since ancient times.

Sometimes I find it useful to read ancient texts to gain insight about modern times. One of my favorite books from long ago is Athanasius: On the Incarnation, De Incarnatione Verbi Dei.

"Athanasius stood contra mundum ("against the world") in defense of the biblical doctrine of Christ. He opposed Arius when it seemed all the world would follow Arius's heresy. Athanasius's work remains even today one of the definitive statements of orthodox Trinitarianism."


www.spurgeon.org

To me the incarnation is the epitome of the genius of Christianity. I believe the unification of God and humanity led to the spread of Christianity and influenced all subsequent religious thought. The incarnation emphasizes the fact that God created men and women in His/Her own image and reinforced the significance of human life.

There will never be agreement about God and about the possibility of salvation, but nobody today can escape the influence of the understanding of the unity of God and humanity.

Happy New Year everyone!

There are numerous pieces of objective evidence for the existence of God and of an afterlife including but not limited to many saints whose bodies or parts of their bodies are incorrupt, the tilma (and the image on it) of Juan Diego, various Eucharistic miracles, and the miracle of the Sun at Fatima, Portugal in addition to many events recorded in the bible.

Those who don't want to believe can find a way in their minds to dismiss the available evidence and those who want to believe can embrace the evidence.

Regarding God's will, prayer ultimately changes us so that we are able to come closer and closer in line with wanting what God wants for us and others. The parable of the persistent widow and her harrassment of the judge, though, illustrates that God is not unable to be flexible when it comes to granting requests. He may know from all eternity that He is going to "bend" in a given situation but that does not mean for Him that it is not "bending". He is not only omnipotent - he is also perfectly loving, merciful, just and empathic and none of these qualities overrides any of the others.

Jesus' ability to yield to requests is illustrated by the changing of the water into wine at Cana after Mary asked Him to intervene despite His initial protest that His "time has not yet come", for those who believe that Jesus is God.

Wonposet are you open minded? If so try this site...download the book, Intelligent Design.
The Raelian Movement
for those who are not afraid of the future
www.rael.org

Happy New Year to all!
Sermo Doc 5 -- Would it have been more palatable if I had left out the "scientific" and just said "fact" or "truth"? Science, religion, philosophy, history -- the category is largely irrelevant when your goal is to know truth. All the history-changing discoveries in "science" & all the great revelations in "religion" have required people to let go of certain boundaries that restricted freer thought.
Earlier in this string someone referred to the New Testament account of Jesus healing a man who had been blind from birth. We can conclude from the experience of modern science and medicine that two miracles actually occured: (1) providing the physical mechanism of sight to the blind man and (2) enlightening his brain so that it could process and usefully interpret the light images that it was receiving, since we know from modern medical records that people who are blind from birth (or from a very young age) who have their vision mechanism restored surgically have great difficulty using their newly-acquired sense. The book, Anthropologist on Mars has a chapter dealing w/ just such a case. When I read that book, I finally understood John 1:5 which says, "And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." So the account of the healing of the blind man can be understood at multiple levels (like most scripture and other deep literature) -- it is also a metaphorical miracle. We can be in the midst of spiritual influences and not perceive them; we can perceive them and not comprehend them. We can choose to convince ourselves that they don't exist because they can't be "proven" from w/in artificial and non-applicable constraints that we arbitrarily superimpose.
Dr. Henry Eyring (referred to above) once said that if you found your religion threatened by science or vice-versa, you had better fix your religion, or your science, or both.
I wish you the best in your objective (scientific) search for truth.

Sermo Doc 65 - you are making a HUGE assumption that the biblical account you mention is a real FACT - not just (at best) some 2000 year old "eyewitness" testimony.

Do YOU believe that all those people on the Benny Hinn-type spectacles are REALLY instantly cured of all of their non-visible ailments?

Has God/Jesus/other holy person EVER "healed" an amputee.

"The Raelian Movement
for those who are not afraid of the future"

Don't you mean one person's interpretations?

March 31, 2006
Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer
By BENEDICT CAREY

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

For the rest of the article since the whole article is over them limit

www.nytimes.com

Wow, that drew a variety of responses. When I was a kid, my rabbi taught that Christianity was "preoccupied" by the "afterlife," and Judaism focused on the here and now. However, the idea of the "afterlife" does have roots in Jewish teachings, as does the idea of Hell. Personally, I am agnostic, and don't have any firm feelings on the existence of God, so the idea of the afterlife is a little more hazy.

My problem is with those who take the Bible (usually Christian -- the Hebrew Holy Scriptures is different) "literally," especially "young Earth" "creationists. The footnote "meaning of Hebrew uncertain" appears scores of times in Genesis alone.

The existence of God is NOT incompatible with Darwinian Evolutionary theory, however. Could not Natural Selection be a Divine tool for creation? Perhaps the story of Genesis, which is demonstrably wrong scientifically, when taken "literally" (everything created exactly as it is now in 6 24 hours days), be a myth told by God to a childlike/primitive people, which we were 4,000 years ago? That being said, I don't have much patience with militant atheists such as Richard Dwarkin or Christopher Hitchens who attack religion itself, either.

To saayah's quote about "for good people to do bad things takes religion," I would add one from Benjamin Franklin (I think), "never to people run to do evil as readily or greater enthusiasm than when they do so out of religious conviction." More people have been killed "in the name of God" than any other reason. Recently, it seems Islam has been warped more to justify Evil than any other religion.

Sermo Doc 5, Nope not just one person's interpretation.

The Raelian philosophy, I would agree it is one persons experience and left to us to believe or not...sound familiar?

What a post. Neither side trying to understand the other. Ridiculous statements, like if there is a God why doesn't he cure all disease? Blaming wars and killing on religion instead of human greed etc. These childish arguments have been debated by serious theologians and philosophers before so why do we ask them over and over when even the answers mean nothing and convince no one of anything.

Actually this post with it's "Lord of the Flies" mentality could serve as a perfect example of why society developed religion in an attempt to specify certain societal norms.

Happy New Year!!

"...if there is a God why doesn't he cure all disease..."
.
.
since this is largely directed, I'm sure, at my commentary, I must step back in and correct this.


My comments were to the effect of this:

the supposedly INERRANT Bible clearly states certain PROMISES that Jesus made to us. many of these promises regarding prayer - UNAMBIGUOUSLY state that ANYTHING that the believer asks WILL be given to them. SO it isn't a matter if God could/would cure all disease...it's a matter of:

1. is the Bible inerrant?
2. does prayer work?
3. has God - through prayer - EVER once healed amputees?

the answer, I suggest, to all three is NO.


Ebola - why do you find this "ridiculous"?

As to "neither side trying to understand the other" - I was raised in (and understood) the Catholic tradition. Since then, I have come to a different conception of these issues - which I have tried to share.

Sermo Doc 79 -- I don't know who Benny Hinn is, and I'm not much for spectacles (except the bifocal ones I now need to read and properly evaluate tympanic membranes, etc.). :-)

I try to not confuse my search for & adherence to truth w/ practices of those who choose to make spectacles, distortions, or extortions of various bodies of information (be they in the context of religion, science, philosophy, or whatever). It can be a tricky business, sometimes, and we see the problem illustrated in our patients who come in rigid w/ irrational paranoia about immunizations and other beneficial medical interventions.

I referred to the incident of the healing as an illustration, not as "proof". Such a proof, like the experience of taste & sight, can only come w/ personal experience. Some experiences are only likely to be gained when one seeks for them sincerely. I wish for you all many good and enlightening experiences.

"neither side trying to understand the other"....THIS is one of the problems when religion (or other artificial social constructs such as politics) gets involved: suddenly there are SIDES.

I too was raised as a Catholic. I have tried to learn as much as I can about the various world religions, both through reading and speaking with adherents in my travels. I strive to be open minded while still maintaining an appropriate questioning (skeptical if you will) attitude. I have found far too many errors, false statements, fuzzy thinking, magical thinking, mental gymnastics to explain the inerrancy of sacred books and arbitrary rules in ALL religions. Then there are the power plays, the subjugation of those with different beliefs, the us vs. them attitude and the forcing of certain beliefs on others of which certain religions are guilty(Christianity and Islam are the biggest offenders here).

Spirituality, love, compassion, morality....these are attributes which make us human. Religion is an artificial construct and is not necessary for us to express our humanity. In fact, it all too often gets in the way.